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Phasing out of r410 and what’s next r 32

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It only feels like yesterday that r 22 was gone . What’s funny is there’s still a lot of r 22 systems out there that need to be replaced ,so what cha to do change them out to 410 and then yet r32 or just wait it out till there is r32 splits and pac units available . Also w that r32 you will be upgrading your reclaimer to one that is rated to combustionable refregerant s good news same refregerant oil so change over from 410 to 32 would not require line set replacement but they run a little more pressure .
I know it’s all to save that planet but in thinking what’s next after they find issue w r32 ? Maybe finally a natural or man made refrigerant which has been ushered to the back of the line yeah ammonia or better yet water . Take a look at highest entraply of refregerant s there’s your leaders Ammonia and water who would have thought and known ,Willis carrier that s who and he went another route which we have been on for getting close to 100 years . Without which none of us would have the food on our tables think fertilizers think and know ammonia .
There’s a lot of bull guff talk about ammonia but here’s one caveat ,there basically all sealed system ,mostly indirect system using a secondary fluid water or glycol mix . Can be powered w gas ,electric and in the future surely hydro solar . Big plus zero ozone depletion and when there’s a leak everybody knows a big plus in my book .
Now the cost of these units is higher then throw away compressors systems but the up side is less grid dependence’s ,longer life span being I ve seen old arka servel units working at 40 years and working well abide you that was say 20 to 25 years ago . I can not say that for any package roof top or split system by 20 years there close to death or quite expensive to operate due to lower eff and usually a lack of maintainace.
Indoor residential cooling is big bucks big business and it seems to me w refregerant being out dated and replaced and updated that the residential market is the one that gets the bums rush and foot a lot of the bill . There atw systems are great but I have yet to see in my research a system that produces heat / hot water and cooling all in one without a lot of extras . And as we know extras , cost money and space which in the home market the walk in closet is twice the size of the mechanical room .
ATW heat pumps sound great but your still stuck a refregerant and equiptment that will be phased out and force to update to new, residential markets always take the bullet on new stuff .I think of when I was a kid didn’t even know what ac was yeah it’s what my dad did for computer server rooms decades ago when it was a much more detailed process and we didn’t even have a window unit . I lived I survived in some ways the human is the only one that changes his environment to suit himself it will be a tough go for future generations when we can no longer build a environment to sustain the human or we really define indoor comfort to meet the energy short comings like the old 68 will become the new 62 there energy conservation and new old hobby knitting woolen sweater back to natural fibers and possible natural refregerants like ammonia .
Peace and good luck clammy
R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
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Comments

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,731
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    Science unlike many other things tends toward accuracy, so of course when error in an estimate (ESTIMATE) appears, they correct it. But the glaciers are walking dead. Whatever year it actually happens is a tiny detail. Read the article.

    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    JakeCK
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
    edited February 2023
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    Science unlike many other things tends toward accuracy, so of course when error in an estimate (ESTIMATE) appears, they correct it. But the glaciers are walking dead. Whatever year it actually happens is a tiny detail. Read the article.

    I like the idea of going to Isobutane, Propane and Ammonia, although I don't mean all at once, just, throwing those cards on the table as options.


    Not everything has to be idiot proof to be a good solution.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaul
  • retiredguy
    retiredguy Member Posts: 915
    edited February 2023
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    If you are old enough to remember the old belt drive compressors, there was nothing to burn up and destroy the system. Once in a while you would replace the drive belts, suction or discharge valve plates, motor or the power head of the TXV. Yes, the seals would leak a little and most of them ran R12 and some R22 but hey they lasted a lifetime.
    And as @clammy mentioned, I do remember the Arkla Servel, Bryant, and Whirlpool gas fired A/C systems (YUK), that ran a long time. I was schooled on all 3
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,075
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    The few Arkla Servels (1960-70's) I seen were 4 tons, IIRC there were none available smaller than that.

    Were any smaller (2-3 tons) available?
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,616
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    Arkla Servel became "Roku" or some name like that. I installed some in the 90s. They were very heavy; I think a 4 ton unit really weighed 4 tons!! LOL


    Ammonia is a great refrigerant and always has been. My old boss learned on ammonia back in the 20s when It was used in ice houses.

    Problem with ammonia is you can't use it with any copper in the system everything must be steel so the weight of the equipment goes way up. This would be a big issue especially with roof top equipment and the cost would certainly go up.

    @retiredguy

    The place I worked at was a York dealer since when refrigeration was invented. We had a lot of York open drive compressors even when I started in 73. They did last forever all R-12.

    Always went around at the end of the cooling season to "pump them down" to take pressure off the shaft seal while they sat all winter and then start them in the spring.

    We still had tons of York parts, valve plates, pistons , rods and gaskets which all got thrown out in the mid 80s when the owner retired. By that time most of those old machines were gone
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,616
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    Arkla became "ROBUR" not Roku, what was I thinking??LOL


    And they are still in business making gas fired heating and cooling absorption units.


    Back in the day around here the gas company used to install and service thease so they would have gas customers summer and winter.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,113
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    just Wondering if they knew it was worse then 22 then why would the US government and epa and the world let it released and labeled as the cleaner less Environmentally damaging refrigerant . It was or least as I understood it and it was trotted to be less damaging then 12 and 22 . So every one started to sell 410 systems and some had issues and there was a little learning curves and equipment changed ever so slightly little improvements .
    I’m all for saving the environment and if buying a complaint reclaimer and hell go invest in refregerant press tool kit so I don’t blow up and last but not least remember to add those new cost and pass them directly to the customer . That’s how it will really all boil down to and just like r410 and issue that occurred early in the field I wonder what issue will come w a new slightly combustible ref . Do I really want to get involved and re tie my bag to a new ref and deal w the terrible install work that where often faced w ? I just wonder how it will pan out personal I don’t think that I would want r32 in my own home and if I had no choice then I really don’t know what I would use . They always make it out that it’s safe but the flammability rating on it states it all and even though 410 has 32 in it it’s at a much lower percentage so less risk and the 410 is not classified as flammable . No matter what they will decide and we will pay until “the next big ice cream cone in the sky appears “ baba dam rass
    Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
    unclejohn
  • TonKa
    TonKa Member Posts: 104
    edited February 2023
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    clammy said:
    ... or better yet water.

     
    Water in a vacuum could work for cooling but, because it will flash freeze at a low enough vacuum, I'd imagine water would require some fancy engineering to be practical in a cold climate heat pump.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,113
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    Just to add this little fact . Years ago w 22 you received a condenser usually charged w enough refregerant for a 25 ft line set now they come good for about 15 ft. When r 32 condensing units are released will they even have a charge being the charge is flammable and it’s being transported in tracker trailers across bridges and tunnels and roads .makes you think will our commercial trucks be effected requiring flammable labeling and higher insurance and certifications due to what where now carrying . I know one dang thing even if propane grew on trees and aside from the fact that I’m pretty sure comes from what where trying to get away from using completely fossils fuels ( don’t make sense ) it won’t be cheap being there already committing heresy w the price of 410 . So I would image when you get used to pay that much even if propane was 3 cents a pound they still charge 650 for a 25 lb tank and most would say thank you so much .
    Food for thought . A lot of tools can’t charge a system properly w 410 what will be the results of r32 ? It will be fun times but possibly by the time this all happens I won’t have to worry I’ll hopefully be done . Lol
    Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
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    Arkla Servel became "Roku" or some name like that. I installed some in the 90s. They were very heavy; I think a 4 ton unit really weighed 4 tons!! LOL


    Ammonia is a great refrigerant and always has been. My old boss learned on ammonia back in the 20s when It was used in ice houses.

    Problem with ammonia is you can't use it with any copper in the system everything must be steel so the weight of the equipment goes way up. This would be a big issue especially with roof top equipment and the cost would certainly go up.

    @retiredguy

    The place I worked at was a York dealer since when refrigeration was invented. We had a lot of York open drive compressors even when I started in 73. They did last forever all R-12.

    Always went around at the end of the cooling season to "pump them down" to take pressure off the shaft seal while they sat all winter and then start them in the spring.

    We still had tons of York parts, valve plates, pistons , rods and gaskets which all got thrown out in the mid 80s when the owner retired. By that time most of those old machines were gone

    @KC_Jones Is this correct regarding Ammonia and copper?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,883
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    NO copper with R717. 
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,741
    edited February 2023
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    ChrisJ said:

    Arkla Servel became "Roku" or some name like that. I installed some in the 90s. They were very heavy; I think a 4 ton unit really weighed 4 tons!! LOL


    Ammonia is a great refrigerant and always has been. My old boss learned on ammonia back in the 20s when It was used in ice houses.

    Problem with ammonia is you can't use it with any copper in the system everything must be steel so the weight of the equipment goes way up. This would be a big issue especially with roof top equipment and the cost would certainly go up.

    @retiredguy

    The place I worked at was a York dealer since when refrigeration was invented. We had a lot of York open drive compressors even when I started in 73. They did last forever all R-12.

    Always went around at the end of the cooling season to "pump them down" to take pressure off the shaft seal while they sat all winter and then start them in the spring.

    We still had tons of York parts, valve plates, pistons , rods and gaskets which all got thrown out in the mid 80s when the owner retired. By that time most of those old machines were gone

    @KC_Jones Is this correct regarding Ammonia and copper?
    Yes it is.

    I can't really agree with any of the statements about weight though. Copper weight density is higher per volume than steel or stainless.

    Copper is .3319 lb/in³ and Steel is .283 lb/in³ Those are the design numbers we use in our software, so you may see subtle variation due to alloy variations.

    In addition steel and stainless steel are a stronger material so they should be able to use a thinner wall tube, so honestly the equipment should be lighter, not heavier. We do up to 550 PSI operating pressure coils with 0.020" 0.019"wall thickness stainless tubing. Even if the tubing was the same wall thickness the steel and stainless equipment should be lighter. Also, imagine how long a stainless coil would last?

    Here is another fun one, our testing has shown that in an air only application the stainless tube will perform just about as good as copper with heat transfer, that thin wall pays off in more ways than one. This has been proven not only in lab testing, but also field testing. We will often install monitoring equipment on first run units to get real world field data on new products. We did lab test copper coils with ammonia, it will last long enough for comparison test data, but that's about it.

    Ammonia got a bad rap years ago, if the industry would have adapted it widely, we basically wouldn't be having any of these conversations....ever.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
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    KC_Jones said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Arkla Servel became "Roku" or some name like that. I installed some in the 90s. They were very heavy; I think a 4 ton unit really weighed 4 tons!! LOL


    Ammonia is a great refrigerant and always has been. My old boss learned on ammonia back in the 20s when It was used in ice houses.

    Problem with ammonia is you can't use it with any copper in the system everything must be steel so the weight of the equipment goes way up. This would be a big issue especially with roof top equipment and the cost would certainly go up.

    @retiredguy

    The place I worked at was a York dealer since when refrigeration was invented. We had a lot of York open drive compressors even when I started in 73. They did last forever all R-12.

    Always went around at the end of the cooling season to "pump them down" to take pressure off the shaft seal while they sat all winter and then start them in the spring.

    We still had tons of York parts, valve plates, pistons , rods and gaskets which all got thrown out in the mid 80s when the owner retired. By that time most of those old machines were gone

    @KC_Jones Is this correct regarding Ammonia and copper?
    Yes it is.

    I can't really agree with any of the statements about weight though. Copper weight density is higher per volume than steel or stainless.

    Copper is .3319 lb/in³ and Steel is .283 lb/in³ Those are the design numbers we use in our software, so you may see subtle variation due to alloy variations.

    In addition steel and stainless steel are a stronger material so they should be able to use a thinner wall tube, so honestly the equipment should be lighter, not heavier. We do up to 550 PSI operating pressure coils with 0.020" 0.019"wall thickness stainless tubing. Even if the tubing was the same wall thickness the steel and stainless equipment should be lighter. Also, imagine how long a stainless coil would last?

    Here is another fun one, our testing has shown that in an air only application the stainless tube will perform just about as good as copper with heat transfer, that thin wall pays off in more ways than one. This has been proven not only in lab testing, but also field testing. We will often install monitoring equipment on first run units to get real world field data on new products. We did lab test copper coils with ammonia, it will last long enough for comparison test data, but that's about it.

    Ammonia got a bad rap years ago, if the industry would have adapted it widely, we basically wouldn't be having any of these conversations....ever.


    The 1926 GE report said the same thing about Ammonia.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,342
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    clammy said:

    just Wondering if they knew it was worse then 22 then why would the US government and epa and the world let it released and labeled as the cleaner less Environmentally damaging refrigerant.

    Two different environmental problems. r12 and r22 were destroying the Ozone layer. The Ozone layer filters out most UV light. If we had lost the Ozone layer we would all be wearing SPF 100 and dark sunglasses. And be really hungry because too much UV not good for plants and animals.
    Now we have a different problem. CO2, Methane, and r410 all reflect heat and cause Global Warming. You may have heard the term Global Warming Potential (GWP). GWP is a calculated number which tells how much a gas contributes to GW. Off the top of my head I seem to recall Methane and r410 have much higher GWP numbers than CO2.
    None of the above makes this any easier for Homeowners and Tradespeople to have to deal with costs of constant change and rushing v1.0 products to market. Which is why my boiler is 75 years old and my cars are 65 to 20 years old. What can I say, I like stuff that works.
    I DIY.
    ethicalpaul
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
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    Sorry,
    From a 544 page report given to GE some time between 1924 and 1926, I believe.








    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Robert_25
    Robert_25 Member Posts: 530
    edited February 2023
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    The apple orchard in my town is still running their original ammonia refrigeration system for the controlled atmosphere storage rooms. I am not sure of the age but would guess 1950's.

    It would be interesting to see how their cost of operation compares to a modern system.

  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,069
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    @Robert_25

    I believe ammonia is still used as a refrigerant in several food processing applications, specifically storage rooms as you mention, as well as some other process applications. So in that particular case I would imagine the modern systems are of similar efficiency since they use the same refrigerant type
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,113
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    Ammonia cannot be used in a closed compression cycle using hermetic compressors ,mainly due to it ability to corrode copper ie motor windings . It can be used in a belt or external driven compression cycle or used in a absorption system which would be constructed of steel piping or at least any portion which would have an contact w the ammonia .Absorption systems usually need a secondary fluid unlike most refrigerant systems which are direct unless chilled water then it apples to apples . For a heating system to both domestic and comfort heating is easy ok but let’s see how it works out providing portable hot water and also cooling the home at the same time .its all great theory but the practicality of it when in place is a different story and I would image a lot of electronics ,3 way valves ,pumps and buffer tanks . Any heat pump air to water would either be as suggested panel rads low temp or hydro air but then where any sense in using a air to water and all the expense might as well just put in a Bosch and be done .
    All this chilled water sounds great and all but remember for the same size cooling effect a chilled water coil is vastly large then even the largest residential n coil cases to boot . So your stuck w terminal units in each room and when it comes to to piping unless it’s a 4 pipe system w 2 coils it either heat or cool can’t have both and let’s not forget terminal units also have drains .
    The future is full of great ideas and as each dream unravels and the reality of such dream has zero fruition we realize dreams might just be such . Look at the past and how ammonia was tossed to the side, now look aside from absorption cooling did you know ammonia amazing ability to have have hydrogen separated and systematized from it . Ammonia there’s the real green solution ,easily transported and converted into energy and there will be the other green in others pockets for sure . Just stirring the pot
    Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
    PC7060
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,075
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    I changed out a 4 ton gas absorption ammonia unit for a 2 ton AC.

    The old unit was about a 4' cube of steel.

    The scrapper was enthoused to get such a big unit. Latter he was upset as all the coils were steel, no copper or brass. Two motors only.

    This unit pumped chilled glycol into the house to a nice copper A coil, which the scrapper did not get.

    The NG co serviced these systems, they would use a weed burner to remove cotton lint etc.
    The made the claim that whatever your winter heating bill was your summer cooling would be about the same amount of gas consumption.

    If you ever smelled ammonia in your house you needed a new heat exchanger as the gas would get into the chilled water.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
    edited February 2023
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    If anyone's curious,
    This is the GE report I mention on the forum from time to time.

    https://www.ashrae.org/file library/about/mission and vision/ashrae and industry history/report-on-domestic-refrigerating-machines1923---1925.pdf


    It contains a lot of information and although it's information from a very long time ago I feel it's still accurate and still important. Certain things such as how much a unit should cost to build vs how long it should last are mentioned as well as how efficient it should be.


    This is pre-Freon so there will be no mention of Freon 12 or any other CFC. Sulfur dioxide ended up being the choice in the end.

    This is literally what the original Monitor Top was engineered from. It's size, power, the Whole kit and caboodle. The OC2 mentioned in the report was it's predecessor.


    The exact numbers in the report as far as what size refrigerator they felt was necessary back then isn't important.

    What I feel is important is to see how it was calculated and why things were done a certain way and that's what I feel is valuable even now. Not much has changed in that department, aside from seeing how cheap you can go..... For example efficiency isn't the only priority in anything, or least it really shouldn't be. There's a point where you go too far.....


    @Jamie Hall





    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,289
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    I think some sort of cascade refrigeration will eventually put large molecule refrigerants out of business. CO2 is safe and inexpensive. So it's ideal for indoors. It's critical temperature is too low for air cooling. (Maybe geothermal can work?) So you need a higher temperature refrigerator to condense CO2. In frost free climate you can use water. Otherwise hydrocarbon or ammonia. These natural refrigerants are safe if they are used in outdoor equipment.

    A heat pump goes opposite way. CO2 sucks outdoor heat to supply say 75° water and then a secondary higher temperature thermocompressor boosts that 75° water to hot enough for heating & DHW.

    CO2 may be so inexpensive that it may be economic to use it directly in geothermal without secondary glycol thermal fluid.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
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    jumper said:
    I think some sort of cascade refrigeration will eventually put large molecule refrigerants out of business. CO2 is safe and inexpensive. So it's ideal for indoors. It's critical temperature is too low for air cooling. (Maybe geothermal can work?) So you need a higher temperature refrigerator to condense CO2. In frost free climate you can use water. Otherwise hydrocarbon or ammonia. These natural refrigerants are safe if they are used in outdoor equipment. A heat pump goes opposite way. CO2 sucks outdoor heat to supply say 75° water and then a secondary higher temperature thermocompressor boosts that 75° water to hot enough for heating & DHW. CO2 may be so inexpensive that it may be economic to use it directly in geothermal without secondary glycol thermal fluid.
    The next complaint will be CO2 is a green house has.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,616
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    Ammonia is still widely used in food processing plants etc.
    clammy
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
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    pressures start to get crazy also in high pressure refrigerant systems, 300-400 psi? Some of the ultra high pressure 700 psi plus!
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
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    hot_rod said:
    pressures start to get crazy also in high pressure refrigerant systems, 300-400 psi? Some of the ultra high pressure 700 psi plus!
    I don't see R744 listed there?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,289
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    hot_rod said:

    pressures start to get crazy also in high pressure refrigerant systems, 300-400 psi? Some of the ultra high pressure 700 psi plus!

    CO2 is very high pressure. Still it was used over a century ago. With today's technology it's doable. An advantage of a cascade system is that the compression ratio for high pressure fluid like carbon dioxide can be modest.
    TonKa
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 1,085
    edited March 2023
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    Science unlike many other things tends toward accuracy, so of course when error in an estimate (ESTIMATE) appears, they correct it. But the glaciers are walking dead. Whatever year it actually happens is a tiny detail. Read the article.

    nice theory. but these days science, at least science communication such as adverted to by @ron , tends towards hyperbole and half truths. i don't care if you're talking about climate change or vaccines. and forgetting the actual course of glaciers there is the other inconvenient truth that signature disappearances can't actually be laid at the feet of GWP in the first order, e.g. those others Glaciers that just won't quit but have shrunk it turns out are more affected by deforestation than climate change.

    Calling things half truths is meant to apply a little precision to the discussion and not as some tactic to dismiss any relevance. Half a 'vaccine' may indeed be better than none, esp. for vulnerable folks. But the selective use of rhetoric advanced as 'science' amounts to propaganda; and that's why the signs had to be taken down. They were put up to scare people and they could have been left there if there were just a couple years or even decades off if the general point was science education, but that wasn't the point. They stood as proof that the campaign to convert climate change into a neo-biblical priority was overwrought, so they had to be removed lest heresy arise in consequence.

    There is no better example of the use of science to hijack policy than the very refrigerant conundrum to which @clammy adverts. As @ron points out, R410A traded one regulatory problem for another. The priority on Ozone Depletion had forced its way to the head of the list such that other priorities were ignored in pursuit of that objective. And here we see typical regulatory indifference where absolute power corrupts absolutey. It wasn't enough to move the industry away from R11 and R12 which are the poster children for ODP. The power had to be brought to bear on R22 despite it having two orders of magnitude less ODP than the benchmark CFCs, Once again, EPAs typical inability to recognize thresholds below which action not only isn't supported by cost/benefit, but the unintended consequences of the regulatory ambit can cause more harm than it prevents irrespective of cost. But with typical hubris, our betters decided upon elimination for R22–despite an extensive campaign for establishing recovery protocols and other best practices that made it a virtual non-issue with respect to ODP, at least in the US. The industry (and its customers) should never have put up with this. Just as the Fgas GWP rules seem to have been set to deliberately rule out 410A drop in replacements that are on the margins, the class 2 ODP rules which begin at 1 order of magnitude below capture

    I notice some of the R410A hagiography attempts to play up its efficiency benefits which are most notably extant in Cooling EER in the high 70s and low 80s (aproximating similar or slightly better gains than condensing boilers in that narrow but relevant operational range; but low otherwise low single digits or even lower than R22 efficiencies at higher temps and in regard to COP for heating. Now every little bit counts except . . . there was several recent comments on a fascinating thread about the efficiency of high end oil boilers where low stack temp is leading to condensation in chimneys and deliberately losing a few points in efficiency with higher stack temperatures was a relevant consideration. In this case, what you get with R410A is not quite the "very high-pressure" refrigerant that @hot_rod has pointed out, but R22 operates at about 2/3 the pressure of R410A which, in my mind, is directly proportional to likelihood of refrigerant loss which, in my mind, is a notable contributor to EPA charting average refrigerant life at 7 years. That's not cause it's worn out, that's cause its gone . . . not to mention the negative impact that this shorter refrigerant life will eventually have on consumer preference against (the soon to be obsolete) R410A platforms. But equally suspicion of future changes.

    And now we face the selfsame recriminations over 410A (where R22 that had minimal but extant ODP is also about 2/3 the GWP of R410A. (there have been some efforts lately to shade their GWPs closer but my manual says 3000 for E401A vs 1700 for R22. Is it plausible that more careful measurement has been made, sure but I think it is much more plausible that this is PR motivated revisionism.)

    Interestingly, while R32 is a significant component of R410A, its not a drop-in, cf. R470A. Its got a lot of glide but slightly lower pressures than 410A. But its GWP is 900. But you notice how EPA decided in its wisdom that the new cutoff should be 750. talk about spliting hairs and choosing winners. So now we're talking a whole nother generation of equipment. We should have stuck with R22 until we had this sorted out.

    On top of that there is the flammability comparision which is why we got 410A to begin with instead of standalone R32 which has modest (class 2) flammability. this goes to our continuing inability to accept tradeoffs. Indeed in Europe you seeing class 3 refrigerants in larger indoor charges! Now I'm not trying some kind of reverse sensitivity to whatever hobgobline I can dream up. My dream refrigerant is, in fact, R600a , Highly flammable HC. But when you consider its other properties, modest charge indoors does not seem like an immense problem to me. It's a no-brainer for standalone "Chiller" style heat pumps that would use glycol fluid for the transfer to indoors. Which leads finally to heat pump units that are double ended like the system TACO demonstrated at AHR Expo this year. Although I admit @jumper that I haven't contemplated thermo compressor raising the temp of liquid flows? I was really thinking of that more as a heat of compression of a gas and not a liquid. I thought I read your post to say you would use thermocompression to raise the temp of modest fluid, e.g. 110-120 F to more suitable hydronic temperatures. It's not jumping into my mind how that would work.

    In the meantime inviting all to sign on to my new industry aphorism:
    R600a-A boom for HVAC :-)
    clammy
  • FStephenMasek
    FStephenMasek Member Posts: 88
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    Maybe 20-some years ago, I inspected a multi-story cold storage facility that had a large ammonia refrigeration system. A truck came once a month to refill it, until they finally repaired all of the leaks....
    Author of Illustrated Practical Asbestos: For Consultants, Contractors, Property Managers & Regulators
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
    edited March 2023
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    Deforestation is literally part of climate change is it not?

    An episode of Cosmos from 1980 talked about the impact of deforestation on temperature.  I don't see how this is a secrete or a conspiracy.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
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    Exit Glacier in Alaska has signs along the trail dating back to 1800’s showing the amount it has receded. Maybe a less confrontational way to mark the amount it has melted.

    Someone chose a good name😳.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,289
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    Glaciers move because there's liquid water underneath. More likely from geothermal than air temperature? If that is bad then people can extract that water and sell it to arid regions like US south west. Inescapable deduction is that envirowhacko s desire issues not solutions.


    ethicalpaul said:
    >> But the glaciers are walking dead. Whatever year it actually happens is a tiny detail. Read the article.<<
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 1,085
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    ChrisJ said:

    Deforestation is literally part of climate change is it not?

    An episode of Cosmos from 1980 talked about the impact of deforestation on temperature.  I don't see how this is a secrete or a conspiracy.

    Where did I say it was secret, I said it was essentially ignored whenever bringing up examples that contemporary advocates what to attribute to burning fossil fuels (and release of refrigerants . . .)

    We do a lot of things that affect climate but burning of fossil fuels seems largely all that anyone wants to talk about as a proximate cause for whatever they claim needs fixing. Thus, discouraging fossil fuel economy in Africa leads to wood burning instead that impacts climate . . . .

    I am certainly not of the opinion that human activity doesn't affect the climate. The change from hunter gatherer to planter i one of the most profound affects on the globe. If the early hominoids had the EPA, maybe the majority of society would still be hunting for dinner . . .

    Our propensity for water storage has affected the rotation of the earth.

    burning fossil fuels has surely had an impact but not to the extent of preoccupation that is invested in it.

  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 1,085
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    and despite my exhaustive attempts I didn't get around to touching on ammonia. So that is either a move back to no moving parts or to non sealed compressor motors, which could arguably be defended with other refrigerants. going to have more refrigerant loss, but if they are low ODP and GWP this might be advantageous and presuming the compressors are outdoors flammability might be more open for discussion. scary corrosive although @KC_Jones seem to have the thin gauge stainless design down . . . all of the above.
  • FStephenMasek
    FStephenMasek Member Posts: 88
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    hot_rod said:

    Exit Glacier in Alaska has signs along the trail dating back to 1800’s showing the amount it has receded.

    Other glaciers are larger. The whole "climate change" or "global warming" thing is being pushed by those who have been wrong for the past 50 years - none of their dire predictions have been correct!
    Author of Illustrated Practical Asbestos: For Consultants, Contractors, Property Managers & Regulators
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,113
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    When I started this post I didn’t think it would turn into such a discussion about the impact of refrigerants on the environment and what ever is going on on that front . I thought it might go more to the discussion on the future of what will evolve for use in air condition that won’t be phased out in yet another 20 years or 10 minutes which every comes first . And also what will be used that won’t be possibly labeled as a appliance so that it will be clear to fail in 10 years . No matter what refrigerants are going to be used there is a larger environment issue the simple issue of life span of operation compared to time in the dump and money wasted by the general public the consumers . I really didn’t realize that the topic would head in the direction it has ,my aim was refrigerants future not political or environmental
    Peace and Good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
    edited March 2023
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    ron said:


    ... tends towards hyperbole and half truths... As @ron points out, R410A traded one regulatory problem for another...

    I installed ac 20 years ago, working for my neighbor's business, when I was home from college during the summer, did that for 2 or 3 summers. Shortly after that is when R410 came out, and I distinctly remember my neighbor remarking on how all the new compressors were leaking because R410 was new and the 400+ psi high side pressures were a new thing and the manufacture of r410 equipment was still using the old silver solder method of connecting lines, and that first couple years of r410 he had many warranty replacements and fixes of new r410 equipment. All the condenser units leaked. And the solution to that problem was having to braze the refrigerant lines. Anyone remember this?
    Everyone I've ever known brazed lines, even with R-22. Soft soldered joints were frowned upon.
    That said... a good solder like StayBrite 8 shouldn't have any issue with R410A pressures.


    The biggest issue I've heard with 410A is how sensitive to moisture the POE oil is.
    I personally insist on always purging with nitrogen before brazing but I've watched guys not do it, and still not have any issues. So, I have no idea on that, I guess the filter dryer picks up their slack.....


    Interested in hearing opinions on all of this from @pecmsg and @ratio
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,113
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    I really would not have had that issue ,every where I ever worked we always brazed plain and simple . As for excessive pressure in my experience this was mainly cause damage by over charging and from not ensuring that the condenser coils where clean especially on 2 row coils it was extremely common . I run into on roof tops usually when asked to to look at a unit running hi head and my diagnose is dirty coils and usually I had to convince them to assist me in pulling the top splitting the coil-and there’s it is packed w pollen there’s your high head pressure . When any unit runs at high pressure and temp there’s issues ,but understanding what your gauges and probes are telling you see half the story . I know plenty of small guys who never clean condensers just don’t know . I was told a long time ago the easiest money in Hvac is cleaning cause no body doesn’t it and half of them do not even do it correctly I mean all you need is hoses ,spray nozzle ,bubble sprayer and a brain . Over charging units is another issue . Peace and goodness luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
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    ron said:

    clammy said:

    When I started this post I didn’t think it would turn into such a discussion about the impact of refrigerants on the environment and what ever is going on on that front . I thought it might go more to the discussion on the future of what will evolve for use in air condition that won’t be phased out in yet another 20 years or 10 minutes which every comes first . And also what will be used that won’t be possibly labeled as a appliance so that it will be clear to fail in 10 years . No matter what refrigerants are going to be used there is a larger environment issue the simple issue of life span of operation compared to time in the dump and money wasted by the general public the consumers . I really didn’t realize that the topic would head in the direction it has ,my aim was refrigerants future not political or environmental
    Peace and Good luck clammy

    this is kinda funny, because how could you not recognize it would turn environmental and political? That is what is driving the refrigerant changes, to say the least, and is exactly why a new one is phased out in what seems like 10 minutes. If it didn't we would still be using R12, given it's lower pressures and use of mineral oil and tolerance to moisture and non-flamability is better than R410 (or automotive R1234yf)

    consider this (which I did not make) and what refrigerant did these old fridges use?






    You think residential AC refrigerant is on a bad path, the automotive side might be worse.
    I haven't read up on it since reading in motor magazine years ago and shaking my head when I read how on a bmw you couldn't just replace the car battery you had to bring it to the dealer so they could do a dealer only computer software update/reset regarding battery age.

    My refrigerators use methyl formate or sulfur dioxide depending on the model.

    R12 isn't necessary.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,833
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    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=exploding+refrigerator&docid=608023093201419023&mid=9EDC5028309404214DC49EDC5028309404214DC4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

    I think its a bad idea to use flamable refrigerant. Time to go back to R-12 R-22 R-502 these will cover 90% of all refergerant needs. I would rather live in a overly warm environment then a overly cold one.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,780
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    unclejohn said:

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=exploding+refrigerator&docid=608023093201419023&mid=9EDC5028309404214DC49EDC5028309404214DC4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

    I think its a bad idea to use flamable refrigerant. Time to go back to R-12 R-22 R-502 these will cover 90% of all refergerant needs. I would rather live in a overly warm environment then a overly cold one.

    So I take it you feel gas stoves are also dangerous? For that matter gas / LP boilers and water heaters too.

    I mean, you must if you think a small amount of flammable refrigerant is dangerous. Having an appliance connected to basically an infinite amount of "flammable refrigerant" would be unthinkable.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment