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Palace Hotel in Silver City NM 1-pipe

guzzinerd
guzzinerd Member Posts: 232
edited February 2023 in Strictly Steam
Now that I'm turning into a steam nerd I've started knocking on local doors looking for other boilers to look at.

This morning the folks at the local (est. 1882) Palace hotel let me look at their system.  It's looks like 1-pipe steam throughout the building.  It's being maintained by the local plumbers who messed mine up over the years so was not surprised to find that half of the radiators were cold.






The LWCO doesn't maintain the minimum water level so someone needs to add water to the tank before turning it on every morning.... otherwise it turns on and makes a huge racket.

I noticed the vents on the cold radiators were pointing down, others had been painted pretty heavily.. would that keep them from heating up?

Thanks 
Bryant 245-8 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains.  26 radiators heating up 3800sqf.

Comments

  • Waher
    Waher Member Posts: 245
    Vents facing down will never open nor will they function if painted shut. Those look like Pierce Butler radiators out of Buffalo, NY.
    https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/pierce-radiators/
    guzzinerd
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
    Yes, when vents are inverted, the weight of the float closes the vent, so the radiator can't fill with steam. This is a common method for temporarily turning a radiator off if the radiator valve won't close.

    The way that header is plumbed is guaranteed to force massive quantities of water into the main. Known as the "bullhead tee," this configuration is never good, and on a side-exit boiler, it's a disaster. They need to hire a steam man to repipe it this summer. It's wasting tons of money, probably not heating all their rooms effectively, and keeping folks up all night with the banging. It also makes the water level fluctuate, which will cause the boiler to crack before too long.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
    guzzinerd
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 232
    Thank you @Hap_Hazzard @Waher, sending this info to the hotel
    Bryant 245-8 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains.  26 radiators heating up 3800sqf.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    1. Boiler is piped incorrectly. It has a colliding header.
    2. as said vents facing down won't work
    3. having to add water daily indicates some severe leaks that will destroy the boiler sooner than it should.
    4. Pressure appears to be set far too high which can waste fuel. Of course if that monster boiler is oversized they may need to set it high to keep the boiler from cycling relentlessly. Not advocating for high pressure, just suggesting why people do what they do.


    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    ethicalpaulguzzinerd
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,452
    Can't add anything to what @KC_Jones & @Hap_Hazzard pointed out
    guzzinerd
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    The radiator that is shown between the bedpost and curtains must have a drip/trap outlet as the supply

    enters at the top.

    This could be a combo 1 pipe 2 pipe system which will confuse some who do not look at the whole picture of installation. FWIW
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 232
    JUGHNE said:
    The radiator that is shown between the bedpost and curtains must have a drip/trap outlet as the supply enters at the top. This could be a combo 1 pipe 2 pipe system which will confuse some who do not look at the whole picture of installation. FWIW
    It's why I took a pic of it.  Was the only one i saw with the dual pipes.  It's the last rad on this line.
    Bryant 245-8 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains.  26 radiators heating up 3800sqf.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    @guzzinerd , that system is newer than the hotel. Those radiators were first made in about 1926, and were in production until about 1938. The ones where I could see the name are Corto, made by American Radiator Co.

    The air vents look like Airids, which were made by the same company about the same time. I wouldn't be surprised if some have failed.

    And whoever installed that boiler wasted no time reading the manual.

    This hotel clearly needs a Steam Man. Are the owners willing to hire a consultant?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 232
    Steamhead said:
    @guzzinerd , that system is newer than the hotel. Those radiators were first made in about 1926, and were in production until about 1938. The ones where I could see the name are Corto, made by American Radiator Co. The air vents look like Airids, which were made by the same company about the same time. I wouldn't be surprised if some have failed. And whoever installed that boiler wasted no time reading the manual. This hotel clearly needs a Steam Man. Are the owners willing to hire a consultant?
    There are no steam men in our state that i know of.  I'll talk to the caretaker and ask if he can pass the message to the owner.

    Thanks 
    Bryant 245-8 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains.  26 radiators heating up 3800sqf.
  • CLamb
    CLamb Member Posts: 272
    From this article is sounds like the owner is going to scrap the steam heating system. “I loved what [Johnson] did to the hotel. The biggest change we’re going to make is we’re going to put in heating and cooling” for each room, Paul said.
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 232
    @clamb. It's a landmark building in the heart of Silver City that still needs a ton of attention.  Maybe he'll weigh the cost of correcting the cost of the existing system against starting from scratch again.
    Bryant 245-8 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains.  26 radiators heating up 3800sqf.
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
    CLamb said:

    “The biggest change we’re going to make is we’re going to put in heating and cooling” for each room, Paul said.

    I can't help thinking about all the stories you see from time to time where a family gets killed by carbon monoxide from a room heater because someone inadvertently blocked the exhaust vent on the outside of the building.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 232
    @Hap_Hazzard the new owner hasn't put a dime into the building since taking it over.  He doesn't even live in the area. The staff is gone except for one live-in caretaker.  The roof is leaking so badly only 8 of the rooms are rentable. 

    I would think rectifying the still-functional boiler system would be cheaper than starting from scratch....but not having any steam men in the area might make that impossible.  
    Bryant 245-8 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains.  26 radiators heating up 3800sqf.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    @Mad Dog_2 , might you be interested in a consulting trip?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    BobCguzzinerd
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
    guzzinerd said:

    The new owner hasn't put a dime into the building since taking it over.  He doesn't even live in the area. The staff is gone except for one live-in caretaker.  The roof is leaking so badly only 8 of the rooms are rentable.

    Sounds like Bad Times at the El Royale.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,018
    Is this the hotel project that Kurt from SWEI was involved in?  He is a contractor from that town that spent many hours here.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 232
    hot_rod said:
    Is this the hotel project that Kurt from SWEI was involved in?  He is a contractor from that town that spent many hours here.
    No idea.  Maybe I'll look him up and ask 
    Bryant 245-8 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains.  26 radiators heating up 3800sqf.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,018
    guzzinerd said:


    hot_rod said:

    Is this the hotel project that Kurt from SWEI was involved in?  He is a contractor from that town that spent many hours here.

    No idea.  Maybe I'll look him up and ask 

    He is a very knowledgable energy guy, has some steam knowledge. Use the search button here, SWEI to view his past posts or run him down.

    I spoke to him a week or so ago, so I know he is still breathing in and out🤔
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,276
    @SWEI, are you out there? :)
    President
    HeatingHelp.com