Steam trap rebuild/replace?

guzzinerd

Am thinking about going through the traps in our building since they probably haven't been touched in decades.  Is there a place i can still get innards for these or will i need to just remove and replace?

Thanks 

Jamie Hall

Tunstall or Barnes and Jones for replacement elements. Not a problem.

guzzinerd

Great, thanks @Jamie Hall!

Long Beach Ed

Best to change them at one time when the system's down in the summer.

Mad Dog_2

One stop Shopping,  Tunstall in Chicopee Mass.  Great small mom.& Pop American Company.   Very fast turnaround and high quality brass and SS.  If they don't stock the right capsule or trap they will make one for you.  Very rare I need to replace whole trap...just the guts.  Mad Dog

guzzinerd

Long Beach Ed said:

Best to change them at one time when the system's down in the summer.
-
That's the plan.  Right now i have a leaky rad that i also wanted to repair this summer... Tried shutting the valve to it but the packing was toast so i re-packed with new graphite today....shuts fine now but is still heating up from the trap side, and still leaking water.  I'm hoping a working trap will help keep the radiator isolated until it's warm enough to remove it.  The leak is not where i can reach it without taking it all apart.


The good news is with the new venting, insulated returns (20 rolls of 3"*1" fiberglass) and calibrated trol the pressure is running between 0-0.75 psi, lots of heat and relatively short run cycles.

guzzinerd

Mad Dog_2 said:

One stop Shopping,  Tunstall in Chicopee Mass.  Great small mom.& Pop American Company.   Very fast turnaround and high quality brass and SS.  If they don't stock the right capsule or trap they will make one for you.  Very rare I need to replace whole trap...just the guts.  Mad Dog

I'll try them thanks ... Can i tell them @Mad Dog_2 sent me?

Mad Dog_2

Absolutely..Ask for Woody Tunstall the  founder's grandson. Great guy.  Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

Just ordered a few TRVs with remote sensors (Macon Controls) from them.   They are a great, North East American Manufacturer. Like Taco..and Amarok, Wolverine Brass , Burnham,  Gorton. Im very brand-and USA loyal.  Keep it in house!!  Mad 🐕 Dog

guzzinerd

Map gas, bench vise and pipe wrench did nothing but ruin it trying to get the top off to look inside, guess I'm getting a new trap.  I see why it was suggested i do this over the summer.

I tried both vendors neither will sell to me, waiting on them to send me rep contacts.

Jamie Hall

Impact wrench, true hex socket, and backup wrench. Nothing else.

mattmia2

You probably would have better luck with a 6 point socket the size of the hex on the cap.

guzzinerd

I'll get the socket for the next ones.

In the meantime, how do I get these off without destroying anything?  The pipe wrench doesn't fit behind the collar.  This is the leaky rad, need to get the shroud off to get to the leak.

mattmia2

Look inside, there is either a big allen or 2 lugs inside. You can try a spud wrench or allen wrench/socket. Most likely you will have to cut it apart buy cutting it close to the radiator then cutting 2 slots with a hacksaw blade or thin spine reciprocating saw blade until you cut almost to the threads then break that wedge out with a chisel.

mattmia2

The spud wrench grabs the lugs and tries to turn it. Another thing to try is to put a rod or drill bit or heavy pipe about the side of the ID inside of it so it doesn't collapse and try to grab it with a pipe wrench.(after cutting the nut off)

Long Beach Ed

The spud wrench often breaks the tabs off the inside. You usually have to cut them out. There's a good video on YouTube by a Brooklyn plumber...

As Bro. Jamie says, open the traps with the proper tools. You need a big Crescent wrench to hold the bottom of the trap and a Crescent or socket to unscrew the cap. They should be brass so they should come apart. Impact wrench would be great too. Big tools = big bucks. Pipe wrenches crush pipes, as you see.

guzzinerd

Found the leak... Braze or Tig weld?  Or?

Thanks 

mattmia2

What is that? Is that a cast iron foot or is that the tank on the end of a convector? If it is steel or copper/brass you can probably solder or braze, if it is cast iron that has rusted through it is a lot more dicey and if that is steel sheet metal it may continue to corrode or just plain crack when you try to repair it. If it is steel you should be able to cut out the rusted part and weld on a patch too.

A salvaged part might be a better idea.

guzzinerd

mattmia2 said:

What is that? Is that a cast iron foot or is that the tank on the end of a convector? If it is steel or copper/brass you can probably solder or braze, if it is cast iron that has rusted through it is a lot more dicey and if that is steel sheet metal it may continue to corrode or just plain crack when you try to repair it. If it is steel you should be able to cut out the rusted part and weld on a patch too. A salvaged part might be a better idea.

There is a row of these copper pipes layered with baffles at the bottom of each cast section.  Assuming copper/brass because they're not magnetic.  I'll see how it brazes.

guzzinerd

Long Beach Ed said:

The spud wrench often breaks the tabs off the inside. You usually have to cut them out. There's a good video on YouTube by a Brooklyn plumber... As Bro. Jamie says, open the traps with the proper tools. You need a big Crescent wrench to hold the bottom of the trap and a Crescent or socket to unscrew the cap. They should be brass so they should come apart. Impact wrench would be great too. Big tools = big bucks. Pipe wrenches crush pipes, as you see.

I agree and will chalk this one up to my learning curve although I didn't use a pipe wrench here.  The bottom was ,gently, secured in my 60lb vice while i used my large crescent and cheater bar on the top.  Will use my impact wrench next time, appreciate that tip and will look up the YouTube videos.

Alex

mattmia2

Are you sure the panel is cast? It sort of looks like steel with tabs attached to it. Should be able to repair it with solder or by shaping a plate to fit over the hole and soldering it on.

Unless those spuds come out very easily i would cut them out, it doesn't look like there is much to counter hold there.

guzzinerd

I got the spuds out no problem.  I do a lot of metal fabricating, welding etc, definitely know cast when i see/feel it.  The panel consists of 3 panels with 3 vertical tunnels each.

There is a flat steel skin on the sides and rear that's just a cover.

Mad Dog_2

I really enjoy rebuilding traps.  Each trap top is a unique battle to losses and get off -esprecially the ones buried under the connectors.  So little room to manuever.....I bring a 5 gallon bucket with every odd tool I own.  Offset wrenches, huge jawed crescent wrenches, faucet basin wrenches, all kinds of sockets spud wrenches.  Once yiu get they open, its a quick swap of the Tunstall trap capsule....next...fun. mad Dog 🐕 

guzzinerd

Mad Dog_2 said:

I really enjoy rebuilding traps.  Each trap top is a unique battle to losses and get off -esprecially the ones buried under the connectors.  So little room to manuever.....I bring a 5 gallon bucket with every odd tool I own.  Offset wrenches, huge jawed crescent wrenches, faucet basin wrenches, all kinds of sockets spud wrenches.  Once yiu get they open, its a quick swap of the Tunstall trap capsule....next...fun. mad Dog 🐕 

Can't wait for Spring to get here to join the fun 🤬

Long Beach Ed

Just so you know, new copper, steel and cast iron inserts are still made for cabinet convectors like these. While they're not quite as, eh, unusual as yours, you may be able to use one as a replacement in a pinch without pulling out the cabinet.

You've got some oddball stuff there. Never saw them on the east coast.

Here they are:
https://ocsind.com/products/convector-elements/

guzzinerd

Tried soldering the crack today, nothing would stick to it, silver, lead etc so i ended up using Marine Tex epoxy.  I've had good success with it on radiators (automotive), gas tanks etc.  Will pressure test it when it's cured.

Pretty cool detail from the original building plans.

Mad Dog_2

My US Navy Vet (Vietnam-Era) introduced me to Marine Tex (think gooey marshmallow that sticks to everything) when we tried to save an old metal 3 component bar 🍸 sink at Floral Parks Oldest Watering Hole, Arps..Wire wheeles the whole bottom lying underneath the bar in the very inhospitable, boozy stinky area that had absorbed 125 yrs of spilled drinks. We then decreased and stripped the underbelly wiped dry and "schmeared"
(Think Brooklyn Bagel and Lox)  2 tunes of it on there 🤔   it didn't leak after that for 15 yrs until whole mechanicals of bar was bar was upgraded. Great stuff. You can  only get at West Marine. Mad Dog. 

guzzinerd

Mad Dog_2 said:

My US Navy Vet (Vietnam-Era) introduced me to Marine Tex (think gooey marshmallow that sticks to everything) when we tried to save an old metal 3 component bar 🍸 sink at Floral Parks Oldest Watering Hole, Arps..Wire wheeles the whole bottom lying underneath the bar in the very inhospitable, boozy stinky area that had absorbed 125 yrs of spilled drinks. We then decreased and stripped the underbelly wiped dry and "schmeared"
(Think Brooklyn Bagel and Lox)  2 tunes of it on there 🤔   it didn't leak after that for 15 yrs until whole mechanicals of bar was bar was upgraded. Great stuff. You can  only get at West Marine. Mad Dog. 

I did a trade a "restored" vintage dirt bike in Miami years aoo.  After one week, gas started leaking out the bottom of the newly painted tank. They had bondo-d over the rust and pinholes. Too thin to weld, the Marine Tex held up until i sold the bike a fews later.  There's nothing i haven't thrown at Marine Tex that it hasn't handled, hopefully will continue with this rad.

mattmia2

Is that whole device copper and brass, is it cast copper or brass as the detail indicates?

Even if the tube is steel it should tin if you clean it to bare metal and use the right flux. I'd use 50/50 for its lower melting point.

You could potentially cut the convector section off and put a new convector element behind the old front. You'd have to make sure you could get enough capacity out of the new convector and you would get no radiant heat and it woudln't continue to heat as long after a call as the current setup.

guzzinerd

mattmia2 said:

Is that whole device copper and brass, is it cast copper or brass as the detail indicates? Even if the tube is steel it should tin if you clean it to bare metal and use the right flux. I'd use 50/50 for its lower melting point. You could potentially cut the convector section off and put a new convector element behind the old front. You'd have to make sure you could get enough capacity out of the new convector and you would get no radiant heat and it woudln't continue to heat as long after a call as the current setup.

I couldn't get it to tin so i took it a to a friend who's a brazing machine with really good equipment, his work:



He couldn't get it to stick either.  I'll try again with the 50/50.

Thanks 

guzzinerd

Long Beach Ed said:

Just so you know, new copper, steel and cast iron inserts are still made for cabinet convectors like these. While they're not quite as, eh, unusual as yours, you may be able to use one as a replacement in a pinch without pulling out the cabinet. You've got some oddball stuff there. Never saw them on the east coast. Here they are: https://ocsind.com/products/convector-elements/

Found the nameplate, is a Modine.  Kinda cool they're still in business, making radiators, for cars..

mattmia2

Modine makes a lot of unit heaters.

mattmia2

So what is it made out of if it won't wet? Copper, brass, and steel should all wet. Monel or something like that wouldn't corrode through. I'm just very curious now.

You could try looking for the patents for those too.

mattmia2

Here's someone with the same type of convectors:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/182697/no-visible-traps-on-two-pipe-system-using-modine-mfg-combination-radiant-convection-radiators

guzzinerd

@mattmia2 i let the marine-tex cure a couple days then pressure tested it for 8 hrs.

Reinstalled yesterday with a new Barnes trap and has been great so far.  Hot, quiet and no leaks.