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Taking pride in my Work…

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urbngasoutfitr
urbngasoutfitr Member Posts: 25
edited January 2023 in Gas Heating
Any concerns or critique on my install would be greatly appreciated. Crown Bermuda 105kBTU Steam, Rheem 40kBTU 40 Gal Tall, Aruba AWR 70kBTU Hydronic, Bradford White 40kBTU 40Gal Tall. 

Thanks 👍🏽 

Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,483
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    Your in pumping away country here😏
    Nice workmanship,
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    urbngasoutfitr
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,109
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    On the steamer, are the house mains parallel or counterflow?

    Usually each main is brought down to a tee on the header.

    Looking pretty good, glad to see some new blood in the trades here.

    Where are you located?
    urbngasoutfitr
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 1,000
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    The thing that i do on my steamers is limit the amount of horizontal piping on the return before going into the boiler. one horizontal nipple coming out of boiler, then one tee flat with boiler drain on the run, then one vertical nipple to my hartford loop tee (wye). This limits the amount of leak points protecting the boiler. Having so much horizontal after the hartford loop kind of defeats the purpose of the hartford loop (not completely but hypothetically speaking).
    urbngasoutfitrLong Beach Ed
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,389
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    Hi, Just looking at the connections on the water heater, I would have unions there just so that if you had an anode at the hot outlet, you would have easier access to it for periodic checking and replacement. In the west, we use flex connectors with true dielectrics, but I'm beginning to understand that where earthquakes don't happen much, solid piping is considered to be best practice. That said, it's a nice looking job!

    Yours, Larry

    ps. Welcome :)
    urbngasoutfitr
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,922
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    pedmec said:
    The thing that i do on my steamers is limit the amount of horizontal piping on the return before going into the boiler. one horizontal nipple coming out of boiler, then one tee flat with boiler drain on the run, then one vertical nipple to my hartford loop tee (wye). This limits the amount of leak points protecting the boiler. Having so much horizontal after the hartford loop kind of defeats the purpose of the hartford loop (not completely but hypothetically speaking).
    A properly working LWCO defeats the purpose of the Hartford loop, especially two LWCOs.

    Especially considering the amount of people using autofeeders and completely ignoring their boilers.

    Hartford loop or not it's dry firing without a LWCO.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaulvhauk
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
    edited January 2023
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    Looks good, not much to critique. On the boiler, I would use a Webstone expansion tank fitting for ease of checking/changing the expansion tank. I'd also put valves on both sides of the feed, and upgrade it to the Caleffi feed/bf valve. I use the one with the gauge.


    I also stopped using draft hoods on water heaters, and go with dual acting baro/spill switch. Just stick your personal CO monitor on top of a water heater with a draft hood, on a windy day. See how much spills into the living space. Combine that with that clothes dryer nearby, and you're potentially pulling in some serious CO into the living space.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    urbngasoutfitrDerheatmeister
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,922
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    Looks good, not much to critique. On the boiler, I would use a Webstone expansion tank fitting for ease of checking/changing the expansion tank. I'd also put valves on both sides of the feed, and upgrade it to the Caleffi feed/bf valve. I use the one with the gauge. I also stopped using draft hoods on water heaters, and go with dual acting baro/spill switch. Just stick your personal CO monitor on top of a water heater with a draft hood, on a windy day. See how much spills into the living space. Combine that with that clothes dryer nearby, and you're potentially pulling in some serious CO into the living space.
    How much is it 5 feet from the water heater?

    Most people don't go to sleep with their head laying on top of a gas water heater.

    A double acting barometric is also designed to open outward during downdrafts.  
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    @ChrisJ always the contrarian. Do what you want, hope you don't die.
    Yes double acting opens outward during downdrafts/blockage, hence the spill switch.
    In the case that opened my eyes to it, I was about 6 feet from the water heater when my personal CO meter hit 120 ppm. Then I left the room thru the basement door to the outside. After it cleared, I went back inside and observed the phenomenon myself where the harder I heard the wind blow, the more CO that would spill down the draft hood, and it would clear as the wind gust stopped.

    Please think before you type, and stop trying to be clever. It's a serious issue.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    Mad Dog_2urbngasoutfitrDerheatmeister
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,922
    edited January 2023
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    @ChrisJ always the contrarian. Do what you want, hope you don't die. Yes double acting opens outward during downdrafts/blockage, hence the spill switch. In the case that opened my eyes to it, I was about 6 feet from the water heater when my personal CO meter hit 120 ppm. Then I left the room thru the basement door to the outside. After it cleared, I went back inside and observed the phenomenon myself where the harder I heard the wind blow, the more CO that would spill down the draft hood, and it would clear as the wind gust stopped. Please think before you type, and stop trying to be clever. It's a serious issue.
    I always think before I type and I don't try to be clever.

    What I asked was perfectly reasonable.
    Especially considering as you said this is a serious issue.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,109
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    A neighbor has his bed next to his WH and 80% furnace vented into a masonry chimney with tile liner.
    The room also has the dryer and there is a bath exhaust fan in the same room.

    However this room is open to the rest of the basement via a 6' opening.
    1950's construction.

    So it does happen.
    ChrisJurbngasoutfitr
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 2,041
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    Maybe I missed it. Is there a backflow preventer on the hot water boiler? Also, not all jurisdictions allow foil  tape on flue pipes. Steam and water piping seems very nice.  
    urbngasoutfitr
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 864
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    Looks like excellent pipefitting on all four appliances.

    With regard to the steam boiler, I did not notice a backflow preventer or a easily accessible skim tapping. I believe the boiler relief piping has threads at the end of the roughly twenty four inch nipple, the threads must be cut off to prevent someone from capping it off in the future.

    The temperature and pressure relief valve on the water heater (with steam boiler) appears to be regular PVC. Here in NJ this would not pass inspection. The concern is that the PVC pipe would collapse and melt if very hot water came out of the relief.

    On the water boiler I did not notice a backflow preventer. In addition as @hot_rod mentioned, you are not "pumping away." The correct piping method is shown in the installation manual in figure 7.3, although I don't see the purpose of the flow control valve.
    urbngasoutfitr
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,922
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    Looks like excellent pipefitting on all four appliances. With regard to the steam boiler, I did not notice a backflow preventer or a easily accessible skim tapping. I believe the boiler relief piping has threads at the end of the roughly twenty four inch nipple, the threads must be cut off to prevent someone from capping it off in the future. The temperature and pressure relief valve on the water heater (with steam boiler) appears to be regular PVC. Here in NJ this would not pass inspection. The concern is that the PVC pipe would collapse and melt if very hot water came out of the relief. On the water boiler I did not notice a backflow preventer. In addition as @hot_rod mentioned, you are not "pumping away." The correct piping method is shown in the installation manual in figure 7.3, although I don't see the purpose of the flow control valve.
    The inspectors I've dealt with in NJ wanted copper on the pressure reliefs.  No plastic no steel.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,389
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    Hi @ScottSecor , I had a closer look at the relief valve pipe and it seems to be the type sold at big box stores that is polypropylene with a steel nipple at the top. In theory, it can take the heat. The lowest melting point I could find for it is 266F. As long as the relief opens at 210F it seems @urbngasoutfitr is good to go :)

    Your, Larry
    urbngasoutfitr
  • urbngasoutfitr
    urbngasoutfitr Member Posts: 25
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    JUGHNE said:
    On the steamer, are the house mains parallel or counterflow? Usually each main is brought down to a tee on the header. Looking pretty good, glad to see some new blood in the trades here. Where are you located?
    Thanks! Phila, PA here. But on the Steam there are 2 mains counter to a tee in which my double header feeds. Much appreciated sir 🤝🏽
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 1,000
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    @ChrisJ. Its called better piping practice as lwco is a mechanical device and does fail. This minimizes the risk.
    ChrisJurbngasoutfitr
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,250
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    I further that, its an Electro-mechanical device that the electric to it can falter also.  Mad Dog. 
    ChrisJurbngasoutfitr
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,962
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    Hi @ScottSecor , I had a closer look at the relief valve pipe and it seems to be the type sold at big box stores that is polypropylene with a steel nipple at the top. In theory, it can take the heat. The lowest melting point I could find for it is 266F. As long as the relief opens at 210F it seems @urbngasoutfitr is good to go :)

    Your, Larry

    The model code says something like rated for the highest temperature the system is designed to utilize but in michigan the state modified the code to a higher temp for water heaters but not for hydronic heating so you can use cpvc or a few other materials for boilers but not for water heaters.
    urbngasoutfitr
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,890
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    I'm not crazy about the gas piping on the water heater (in the hydronic boiler pic). Shouldn't it be secured somehow when it's attached to Trac pipe?

    From a service standpoint, the lack of isolation valves for the circulator, extrol, and PRV would be annoying. Especially with a high water content boiler. Yes, you can isolate the circulator from the system, but there's no way you're not creating an air pocket in the boiler when it's time to refill. And there's no way to purge through the boiler. 

    urbngasoutfitr
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,922
    edited January 2023
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    Mad Dog_2 said:
    I further that, its an Electro-mechanical device that the electric to it can falter also.  Mad Dog. 
    pedmec said:
    @ChrisJ. Its called better piping practice as lwco is a mechanical device and does fail. This minimizes the risk.
    Understood

    But it's not going to matter when the system keeps running ignored until it dry fires anyway

    . I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be done. I'm saying do not put too much faith in it, the LWCO(s) are far more important in today's world.

    @Mad Dog_2 if the electric to a LWCO drops out the boiler shuts down.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    urbngasoutfitr
  • urbngasoutfitr
    urbngasoutfitr Member Posts: 25
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    I just want to thank you guys for the constructive criticism! Lol again I am new to the heating industry (under 5 years) there is definitely still a lot to learn, also I stand behind all my work no questions asked. Hope everyone’s had a great Sunday. GO SIXERS! 
    Long Beach EdSTEVEusaPA
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,109
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    My point is that the 2 house steam mains appear to be counter flow; that is the steam is flowing out to the the rads and the condensate is returning back in the opposite direction (against the steam flow).

    It appears that all returning condensation water is flowing back down into the header and then to the equalizer drop.
    Possibly producing wet steam coming up from the header.

    Counter flow mains usually have a tee in the horizontal main to drain that condensate, thru the bull of the tee, directly down into the wet return.
  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
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    If those water heaters are 40,000 btu, the 3" vent connectors are probably not the correct size.
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
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    If those water heaters are 40,000 btu, the 3" vent connectors are probably not the correct size.
    They kinda' look like 4" to me, but I've seen 3" on 50K water heaters.

    Nice work. Relief terminations out here are 6" to 24" above grade. Some of yours look too close to the ground. NBD
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,250
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    I've seen many gas water heaters venting with 3* fine but I never use smaller than 6" and most codes and inspectors require that.  Yeah Vent Terminations in NYS need ti be around 30" above grade to be above the worst average snow fall. Mad 🐕 Dog 


  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,389
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    Hi, About vent sizing, I think the answer is "It depends". BTU input per hour, vent height, and horizontal run all have a say. Have a look here and see how your work fits. https://inspectapedia.com/chimneys/Chimney_Flue_Size_Requirements.php

    Yours, Larry
    ChrisJ
  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
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    If those water heaters are 40,000 btu, the 3" vent connectors are probably not the correct size.
    They kinda' look like 4" to me, but I've seen 3" on 50K water heaters.

    The draft hoods have 2 "steps" in them. The upper is 3", the lower is 4". It appears that the lower 4" step is visible, hence a 3" pipe is installed on the upper step.

    There are very limited situations that the IFCG will allow a 3" chimeny vent connector on a water heater. I believe that only a water heater under 40 k input can use a 3" connector at all, 40 or above need at least 4". The chart should be consulted.
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
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    On the Bradford-White water heater, shouldn't the shutoff valve be on the cold side?
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,250
    edited January 2023
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    You do nice clean work.  Just a few small suggestions that I would point out to my own son.

    1) Like Hot Rod pointed out, with Rare exceptions, always put your Circs on supply "pumping away" from expansion tank and water feed.  It really makes a big difference with air elimination and air control.
    2) I love the "Onions" on the supply and returns of boiler.  Makes a future swap out Blitzkreig fast! Furthermore, Your piping work then becomes part of the system NOT that specific boiler and is less likely to be ripped out or screwed with in the future.
    3) Yeah, only like copper on relief piping. Pvc can get soft and distorted over time or if its constantly blowing off hot water.  Black pipe can get rusty and a scale build up and in some cases significantly blocked when you have constant blowing off .  That one hwh relief almost looks like it touches the ground.  Most codes that I have read call for 6" A.F.F. (above finished floor)
    4) You'll save yourself or the next guys hours bleeding radiators by isolating the expansion tank with a ball valve that has a drain tee and boiler drain between valve and tank to make swapping and dumping a bad tank easy.Webstone makes a great one piece unit.   In Our New York codes, after a certain size they want an additional relief valve (matched to boiler relief BTU rating) if you isolate an expansion tank,or another option is a locking ball valve.
    5) its very minor but I always try to slightly pitch my steam headers DOWN toward the equalizers to ferry any condensate DOWN back in to the boiler rather than pull it with The Steam and out to the system. 
    6) To me, from this angle ,  it looks like that ball valve IS on the cold inlet where if you are only going to have only one SHOULD be there.  I always put one on hot,  one on cold (especially on commercial  so u don't have to drop entire HW system)and unions right out of the water heater for next easy swap out.
    7) Last, from the larger pipe sizes, it looks like that one boiler is supplying an old high volume it not gravity system.  When thats the case, the manufacturers at the minimum want some bypass piping with tees and ball valves to blend the voluminous  colder return water in slowly, avoiding thermal shock and sustained flue  gas condensation 
    Very good job overall, Son!  And, Crown is a VG boiler and I love their model Names..Montego for example.  Mad Dog 🐕