New steam boiler banging

RDJ

So we had a new steam boiler installed the old one although it didn’t work well was silent even on cold pipes. The new one can wake the dead to the point our neighbor came over and said something to us. I took some pictures of the new boiler and all the piping. One part is silent all the time but the maze like area is just so loud. They have come back 3 times and each time they “fix” 3 hours later it’s just as loud again. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Waher

The near boiler piping is not to the boiler manufacturer's requirements and is copper when it should be cast iron. They only used one steam supply tapping when both should be used regardless of what the manual says. The installer reused almost of the existing piping without regard to installation manual's requirements (diameter, height, lack of swing joints, etc.) for the new boiler.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1112955/Dunkirk-Psb-3d.html?page=10#manual

None of your steam mains or the header are insulated. It appears you are missing or have undersized venting of the mains. The barometric damper and flue pipe is also improperly installed at oddball angles it shouldn't be.

Was the boiler water skimmed of oil after installation? Probably not.

What is your vaprostat/pressurtrol set to currently?

RDJ

So none of that original stuff was changed so that as it was with the old system. I was told the whole system was drained flushed skimmed. I can take a photo of the vaprostat/pressurtrol if you let me know what it looks like. The worst area is in that on picture that has a small cast pipe with a shut off valve that loops around to a condensate return and back to the boiler. Which I find odd due to water not being able to run up into the smaller pipe and why the shut off valve? There is also the original condensate return at the end of that main steam pipe so seems redundant and clearly added after the original pipes. 

KC_Jones

The incorrect piping on the boiler is causing it to suck the water out of the boiler and throw it out into the system causing the banging.

The old piping needs tore out, basically to the ceiling, and the boiler completely re-piped to manufacturers specification.  It need both risers used and both in 2 1/2” pipe, not the reduced 2” they used.

It is 100% impossible to get it working correctly the way they did it.  It’s a repipe or live with the banging forever, those are your choices.  Copper is typically a poor choice also.

pecmsg

Read the instructions 
does it require BOTH takeoffs to be used?

gfrbrookline

Ditto @KC_Jones. Steam requires iron pipes not copper your installer took incorrect short cuts. Boilers come with instruction manuals that need to be followed for the boiler/steam to function properly. If the installer does not follow the instructions they are not installing it properly and should not be paid until it is piped properly.

Long Beach Ed

Horrible stuff. You were ripped off.

RDJ

I’ll read over the install guide but wondering if none of the piping other than copper was changed and the old system didn’t bang why does the new? Here is a probably horrible photo of the old one and how it was piped into the existing pipes. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

@RDJ

Too bad you didn't stop in here before the boiler was installed. We could have saved you a lot of heartache.


Get the boiler manual out and look at the piping diagram and compare it to what you have. Both the pipe SIZE and piping CONFIGURATION matter. Yours is all wrong. In addition they probably didn't skim the boiler.

While copper for steam is not prohibited or against code it is frowned upon by people that know steam. The copper is not your problem the piping is

mattmia2

Older boiler was top outlet instead of side. that piping may be correct for that boiler.

The 5 section side outlet dunkirk requires both outlets be used and the piping be the full 2.5" of the outlets.

Here is the manual which the installer needs to follow:
https://dunkirk.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/14683003-Dunkirk-PSB-IOM-REV-O.pdf

The diagram for a 5 section boiler is on page 11, figure 4.

I bet it is oversized too which makes it worse.

EdTheHeaterMan

If you look at your boiler piping and compare it to the manual, you can clearly see some differences right off the bat.

RDJ said:

I’ll read over the install guide but wondering if none of the piping other than copper was changed and the old system didn’t bang why does the new? Here is a probably horrible photo of the old one and how it was piped into the existing pipes
Photos deleted

The new boiler needs to have 2-1/2" pipes from the side boiler supply tapping all the way up the the header (the part that has not changed). Because, when water boils inside the boiler and the steam leaves the boiler is is like a hurricane inside the to pof the boiler where the water is changing into steam. This hurricane force wind will move slower thru a larger pipe. It will move even slower thru 2 larger pipes.

By using a smaller pipe the same amount of steam that is designed to move thru the 2-1/2" pipe must try to fit thru the 2" pipe. It will move much faster on the way out. Think about a high hurricane wind moving over a river, lake, or ocean. If you move the wind fast enough it will actually blow the water off the surface of the lake or river and move it on to the land. Then you get a flood. Then FEMA comes in 10 days later and starts to give out money to help the flood victims.

Your 2" pipe is making the Steam "Wind" leave the boiler much faster than designed. On the way out of the boiler it picks up water and the high speed Steam "Wind" pushes that water into the Header and up to the steam mains. The old boiler did not do that because the pipe was bigger and the Steam "Wind" leaving the boiler went strait up in a larger diameter pipe, so the steam left slower. Same amount of steam, just slower thru a bigger pipe.

Every time your new boiler makes steam, there is a mini flood in the steam mains. That water is making the banging. And there is no steam version of FEMA to help you out. You need to contact the installer to get it right ...or a lawyer to make him get it right.

EdTheHeaterMan

Another note. after looking at the model number you posted of your boiler, You need 2 pipes from the boiler. both sides need to be connected with 2-1/2" pipe to the header like this illustration. Your boiler is connected with only one copper pipe that is too small.

Your boiler re pipe might look like this.
It will take moving the boiler further from the chimney and extending the header pipe as shown to accommodate the minimum 15" pipe that is currently less than 1" on your current piping.

EdTheHeaterMan

Holy mackerel @mattmia2 Thanks for the award.
Someone actually agreed with me 500 times. This is almost as precious as this award my Son-in-Law had framed for me last Christmas.

mattmia2

@EdTheHeaterMan if i could hit awesome and lol at the same time i would.

i could agree with the first comment too and screw up the count...

TonKa

A steam system is very forgiving of poor piping, until it isn't.

The professionals here are giving you good information. Even if you can get it quiet, it will never be optimal. Frankly, your old boiler, though quiet, may not have been optimal, either.  If you can have your near boiler piping remedied without added large expense, do so. If for no other reason, the boiler's warranty is conditional on a correct install.

However, with all that has been said, let's see if you have some luck. Check your pressuretrol. At a correctly limited pressure, your system might quiet down, even if it could be better.

Take a picture of the entire control side of your boiler if you don't know what your pressuretrol looks like.

Also, given everything else problematic, it's doubtful they skimmed it, even if they said they did. Draining & flushing is not skimming.

BobC

I agree with piping not being adequate and that a good skimming might help a lot. Anybody who would pipe a boiler like that would not waste their "valuable" time skimming.

I did notice a strap hanger on a main above the boiler that looks a little slack. old houses settle and sometimes it doesn't take much to upset a delicate balance. If that main was pushed up a little it might have pushed things just enough to start the anvil chorus going.

Bob

KC_Jones

What it was doing before is pretty much moot.  These are systems, change part of the system and the system is now different.

Maybe the old boiler had a bigger steam chest.  Maybe it had more space to the water line from the header.  We could sit here with maybe’s and what if’s all day, but it won’t solve anything.  What will solve things is getting that piping corrected.

I’ll be blunt.  They obviously don’t know what they are doing, and probably shouldn’t be working on steam at all.  That said you are already in business with them so need to see what they are willing to do.  You paid for a proper job, you did not get what you paid for.  It quite clearly does not match the required piping from the manufacturer and they need to fix it, for the money you paid already.  If you made final payment already, you probably don’t have much leverage so this may be a crap shoot and possibly have to have another contractor come in to do it over.

RDJ

I appreciate all the info everyone is giving. I had time to read over the whole installation manual and looked at the version on page 11 that they “followed” and can see where they cut corner and knowingly or unknowingly due to not having enough steam knowledge made mistakes. 

They are coming back out this Tuesday to cut apart the old boiler so they can get it out of the basement. I have the pre install persons cell number and we have used them on 2 properties now for ac install so I should not have a problem having them correct the issue since it was installed incorrectly. If they are unwilling to do anything then I will go to the credit card company we used for the financing and lodge a complaint for a refund as it was not installed correctly and to my bank that we used to put money down so we weren’t financing all of it. 

I do get steam is an animal in its own category and I have never had it in any previous homes before but now thanks to this I have some knowledge

once I make contact I’ll update here and also check back if anything new is noticed.  

tim smith

It also looks like the header may be sloping down toward the boiler rather toward equalizer. Maybe that end of header drooped when replacing? Also as said piping needs changing anyway.