Is this pipework OK?

avidrissman

I know, if I have to ask the question, the answer is “no” but I want to run this by you.

I have one-pipe steam radiators in an apartment in NYC. I had an earlier nasty popping problem that’s now solved, but now I’m dealing with different annoying noises:

https://youtu.be/ztzyVNPeZbc

The noises are kinda coming from both radiators that feed off the same riser, but while I can hear it in the bedroom radiator:



It sounds a bit more like it’s coming from the living room radiator:



It actually sounds a bit like it’s coming from that valve.

Is this reasonable piping? Can you have a valve inline like that? Next summer, I’m thinking of having plumbers come out, and switch to an angle valve like I have in my bedroom, and running a straight pipe to it. (That should be simpler than moving the entire wall-mounted radiator over a foot.) Does that sound like a good idea?

EBEBRATT-Ed

I see nothing wrong with the piping if everything is pitched correctly. But moving the radiator to the right would be better

mattmia2

My concern would be in if the piping can move without scraping on the floor (or numerous other things if they thought getting the floor that close was ok)

That hammer could be coming from lots of other places in the building

avidrissman

I am not convinced that the piping is pitched correctly. I suppose that moving the radiator right a foot is the best approach, but then this definitely will have to wait for the summer.

Re the floor, “they thought getting the floor that close was ok”, the floor was installed by the contractors who did the gut reno 7 years ago whose work has repeatedly proven them to be wildly incompetent. It’s a side project of mine to carve the floor away from the piping.

avidrissman

mattmia2 said:

That hammer could be coming from lots of other places in the building

Yes, but...

1. Putting my ear close to the radiator, I can hear it more loudly in the valve and it’s a bit more soft and sounds a bit different away from the valve.
2. If there’s any chance it’s this piping, I’m willing to pay to redo it. It’s loud and still prevents me from sleeping without earplugs.

mattmia2

The valve is open all the way, right?

If the system is making wet steam you could have a problem.

avidrissman

mattmia2 said:

The valve is open all the way, right?

If the system is making wet steam you could have a problem.

Yes, the valve is entirely open. As for the steam, I’m on the 4th floor and have zero control over the boiler, so I can only hope so.

I am in the situation where I have control over the stuff in my apartment, and no control over anything else. That’s why I’m willing to redo the mounting of the radiator and the piping to aim for perfection. It’s the one thing I can control.

mattmia2

If the boiler is not piped properly or has oil or improper additives in it and is throwing water up in to your radiators, you can't fix that from your apartment.

avidrissman

I understand that. I’ve run for the board of the co-op for the last two years to try to get the power to deal with whatever’s going on with the boiler. However, for now, I guess my plan is to move the radiator a foot to the right and have an angle valve put in.

Long Beach Ed

We don't know how big that radiator is. Those modern radiators are usually built mostly for hot water and have tappings that are sometimes not large enough for ideal steam work. You could be getting water hammer in the radiator (if it's a one-pipe system) as the condensate moves under the steam. A high steam pressure will also contribute to this. A slower vent (one with a smaller hole) will slow down condensate production and lessen the hammering.

Since the steam riser is downsized with a reducing coupling at the radiator, the venturi increases steam velocity before the valve, especially if pressure is too high in the system. This impedes condensate removal from the radiator. Here too, a smaller vent may help reduce the amount of condensate handled.

The valve may also be a poor pattern import that is trapping water, though that's doubtful.

Aluminium radiators have a huge coefficient of expansion. If mounted in a manner that doesn't permit them to slide easily as they heat up, they make all sorts of noise. Those may be Chinese too, which are not designed well and tend to be less forgiving at best. The thin metal resonates any hammering like a drum.

One way to certainly get quiet is to replace it with a properly sized and pitched cast iron one and get the condo board to check the steam pressure.

Sully1266

Once old radiator’s are moved in a Reno by contractors who know nothing about steam system’s it can throw the whole system out of balance. Try breaking the Union on the valve ( when system is not under pressure and also shutting valve) If you can lift it a little back towards valve and riser see if any water is trapped in radiator it will drain out . Put a level on radiator to see if it has a pitch if any back to valve. Like someone stated earlier it could be a problem somewhere else in building. I still remember a story Dan told years ago about how he got called to Madonna”s penthouse to fix a steam issue nobody could fix and he found a riser vent in a different part of building that caused the issue. Steam is all about venting and balance you screw one of those up you start down the path of changing vents and valves that just make the problem worse. If it was fine before the Reno now it’s not check the pitch.

avidrissman

Lots of thoughts.

First, they run the system at 5 psig. Yes, it’s way too high. No, they don’t listen when I tell them to turn it down. That’s why I’m running for the co-op board to try to get power. Until I’m on the board, any advice about changing anything outside of my apartment is not useful so please do not give me any.

Second, the radiator is correctly pitched. I replaced it last summer. It’s a Charleston Pro from Runtal. It’s stainless steel, not some cheap aluminum thing.

Third, I didn’t know that sizing of vents was a thing. Is there a recommended source for vents?

gfrbrookline

It may just be the picture angle but is that valve fully open? It doesn't look like it is from the picture or video. If not that is likely your issue.

avidrissman

Yes, the valve is fully open.

My question remains about slow vs fast vents. Is there a good reference for what my options are, and where to buy them?

ethicalpaul

I like Maid O Mist and Gorton. Those two are sized the same. Maid O Mist has changeable orifices so you can try different sizes easily. They even sell a kit that comes with multiple sized orifices. I would start with a #4 if your apartment is plenty warm, that's about the smallest size vent you can get.

You might post a picture showing your current vent just so we can see what you've got currently.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Jacobus-Maid-O-Mist-J4-4-1-8-Angle-Air-Valve-3564000-p

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Gorton-G4A-Gorton-No4-Angle-Vapor-Equalizing-Valve-3525000-p

The Steam Whisperer

WE have recently found that the inline radiator valves will back up alot of water in the radiator when installed vertically because the seat is about 1/2 the way up inside the valve. If the valve is turned 90 degrees this will allow the water to flow freely through the valve. Also, as said before, the valve size needs to be big enough for the radiators and the boiler producing steam at the correct rate so water doesn't get stuck in the radiators due to excessive steam velocity through the piping and the valve.

mattmia2

There is a document here somewhere where someone has documented the flow of various vents.

FStephenMasek

https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/Balancing-Steam-Systems-Using-a-Vent-Capacity-Chart-1.pdf