Waterlogged Steam System

EBEBRATT-Ed

Post where you are in Pennsylvania. Depending on what part of the state there are some steam pros out there. There are also some in NJ if that isn't too far

LivingTheSteam

I am in Johnstown, Pennsylvania....Western PA

Jamie Hall

See if you can find anywhere on either the mains or the returns that there might have been vents or crossover traps. You need them. Those F&T traps are NOT vents. They may release a little air, but that's not what they are made for.

As an example of what I'm looking for, in the last picture the return ends in leg of a T, and drops -- and the other arm has a plug. I can't see it, but I wonder if there is a similar T on the steam main hiding behind the insulation. In which case, I'd lay odds that once upon a time there was a crossover trap there, but you could also put main vents there -- and either a crossover trap or vents are needed on BOTH the main AND the return.

I'd also bet that both the return and the main dripped into a wet return before the F&Ts were MacGyvered on there.

In any event, without both the main and return vents or crossover traps, you'll not get steam to the radiators, since the air can't get out.

I'm still concerned about the water being continuously added. Where, may I ask, is it coming from? There should be no need for ANY makeup water being added. Find the pipe through which the water is coming and firmly close the valve on it. It may be coming into the condensate receiver. But in any case, the control -- whichever it is -- that is controlling the boiler feed pump should not allow the water level in the boiler to rise much above the running water line.

Don't neglect any piping associated with the coal boiler, either. It's entirely possible that somehow that boiler is getting overfilled by some odd connection.

Water doesn't appear by magic. Find that errant water feed and shut it off!

LivingTheSteam

@Jamie Hall a couple things...I am not sure I know where you mean on the last photo. Are you talking about where the yellow valve is...right there used maybe used to be something?

When we fired the system up for the very first time, there were radiators that got a little warm, never hot, that I have since never felt get warm at all. Before they got warm they were spitting water and hissing from the top of the control valve. I mentioned this to my HVAC and they said it was probably loose packing nuts and tightened them, now they don't spit any water out but they also don't get hot...could the absence of the vents allow air to escape out the top of the control valves and that was enough to let steam in? I am just trying to figure how people could live here and heat this house..we changed nothing.

If I shut the valve on the line coming from the condesate tank to the boiler, if the devices are calling for water and it doesn't get it what will happen, could it negatively affect something since no water will be able to be pumped?

Steamhead

@LivingTheSteam , did you call my office? I collected some messages but it didn't occur to me that might have been you..................

LivingTheSteam

@Steamhead haha honestly I probably did. On Friday I searched Google for Steam HVAC companies and called a few...one definitely was in Maryland it must have been you.

Steamhead

OK- we can talk sometime next week.

Jamie Hall

No, not where the yellow handled valve is. At the top of that vertical pipe, it runs into one arm of a T, and the dry return comes into the leg. There is a plug in the other arm of the T -- on top. That could be the possible location..

And I do NOT mean to turn off the valve from the condensate tank to the boiler. That valve must be left open -- that is the only way condensate returning can get back into the boiler. I want you to find out where additional makeup water is coming from and turn that off.

Think. If the boiler is at a certain level cold, and you fire up the system, steam is produced. Good. That steam should go to the radiators -- that it doesn't speaks to a total lack of venting. Got that far. Now when the boiler turns off and gets cold again, the water level in the boiler should return to more or less exactly where it was. The only way the system can flood -- absolutely the only way -- is if more water is introduced into the system from somewhere else. If your system is flooding, somewhere, in some way, additional water is getting into it. If it is even an inch or two higher than when you started, there is water being added.

Somewhere -- and it may be connected to the coal boiler or somewhere else -- there is a connection from an outside water supply -- probably your domestic water. Find it and turn it off. Better yet, find it and find out what is allowing it to add water.

mattmia2

If there is no venting and you crank the pressure way up it will compress the air and get some steam in to the radiators while wasting a ton of fuel, that is probably how they were limping along.

LivingTheSteam

@Jamie Hall I know for a fact that it's coming from the condesate tank. The condesate tank also has a float low level water check in it that if it drops below a certain level it adds domestic water to the tank which then ends up in the boiler.

KC_Jones

LivingTheSteam said:

@Jamie Hall I know for a fact that it's coming from the condesate tank. The condesate tank also has a float low level water check in it that if it drops below a certain level it adds domestic water to the tank which then ends up in the boiler.

The extra water is coming from the fresh water feed into the condensate tank.  Several of us have indicated as a trouble shooting method to turn off that water supply.  The boiler can only overfill if new water is coming into the system from the makeup feed.  For some reason it seems that the float control may be set wrong, so as an initial diagnosis turn off the valve feeding into the tank.

Now if you valve off that feed and the boiler actually goes low on water in less than say a month, you may have a leak in the system.

Troubleshooting like this is a process, one must tackle one issue at a time.  Looking at too many things at once will become overwhelming and end up solving nothing.  

LivingTheSteam

@KC_Jones I will shut that off. I apologize, I am just learning this with every post I make and every post I read. If I just shut the domestic feed off, the boiler is still going ti ask for water after every cycle, and once the domestic feed is off its going to be asking for water from an empty comdesate tank until there is condesate returned. If that is the case what will the boiler do, continually call for water that isn't there to get. I may be missing something very basic here and if I am I apologize.

Jamie Hall

LivingTheSteam said:

@Jamie Hall I know for a fact that it's coming from the condesate tank. The condesate tank also has a float low level water check in it that if it drops below a certain level it adds domestic water to the tank which then ends up in the boiler.

And why didn't you say so? That's exactly what I've been hammering on about. Turn the feed to that valve off! Then see what happens.

KC_Jones

LivingTheSteam said:

@KC_Jones I will shut that off. I apologize, I am just learning this with every post I make and every post I read. If I just shut the domestic feed off, the boiler is still going ti ask for water after every cycle, and once the domestic feed is off its going to be asking for water from an empty comdesate tank until there is condesate returned. If that is the case what will the boiler do, continually call for water that isn't there to get. I may be missing something very basic here and if I am I apologize.

The condensate tank collects the condensed steam(water) that comes back from the radiators.  If the tank goes empty then that will be another clue about what’s going on.

The boiler really should only request water when it’s low on water, on my boiler that’s pretty much the bottom of the gauge glass.

Shutting off the water is the first step in diagnosing the problem, one thing at a time.  Keep in mind the system should only take on fresh water (if you let it remain automatic), maybe once a month at most.  Anything more than that is indicative of a problem of some kind, including leaks.

LivingTheSteam

@KC_Jones @Jamie Hall what actually sets the level when the boiler asks for more water? Is it just the height where the Auto feed devices are installed?

Long Beach Ed

Remember too that the M & M 67 LWCO's appear to be switching the boiler feed pump. That repetitive duty is improper for its Type 11 switch, which is rated as an occasional safety control. If the contacts are critical or worn, it could be feeding indiscriminately.

JUGHNE

I think the M&M 67 has pilot duty only as there is a relay on the boiler next to it.

If the feeder pump has a valve between it and the boiler, I would throttle it down and have it fill slower. Most of the feeder pump move too much water.

Is it possible that once the pump stops that water could be syphoned out of the tank and into the boiler.

I would drain the coal boiler and valve off all the piping that is shared by the two boilers.

Do you have a separate water heating tank?

You said that the copper piping for hot water, domestic and or BB heating, is shared by the two boilers......not clear on that connection.

LivingTheSteam

I understand I need to stop the water from coming into the system. I have traced the line from the condesate tank pump to the boiler and there isn't a shut off anywhere. Shutting the power to the pump on the condesate tank doesn't allow any water to be added, but the honeywell transformer is stuck open now waiting for more water, this can't be good to leave it this way is it?




I guess my question is how do I get this thing circled to stop closing the circuit to kick the pump on that feeds the water into the boiler.


The other thing of note is no matter how often I blow it down (recently it's been daily to keep it running) the first blow down is extremely dirty and has an oil smell. Not sure if that matters or not.

JUGHNE

The M&M 67, with the yellow handle valve, has a "hot dog" long float in side.
When you drop the water level the float will activate 1 of 2 switches inside.
The first switch energizes the relay, you have circled, that relay runs the feeder pump.

If the float drops farther then switch #2 should shut off the boiler burner.

When you blow down both switches will be activated....pump start and burner off.

During normal operation, as water steams away, the float should just activate the first switch, calling for the pump to replenish the boiled water.
If for some reason the pump does not deliver, then the second switch is opened shutting off the boiler.

You must be positively sure that the burner shut off when you blow down.
The blow down test is usually done when the burner is on.
Without burner shut down and no water, the boiler can dry fire and crack....at best.

If you want to stop the pump from running, there is a wall switch you could turn off temporally only to confirm this scenario.

It looks like you have a secondary LWCO that uses a probe. What are the numbers and name on the black box to the left of the sight glass.

Jamie Hall

" I have traced the line from the condesate tank pump to the boiler and there isn't a shut off anywhere. Shutting the power to the pump on the condesate tank doesn't allow any water to be added,"

Quite true. You are not listening. That line -- and the feed pump -- must be left on. However, evidently there is a line from somewhere on your domestic water system to the condensate feed tank. That's the line that should be turned off.

Repeat after me. The boiler boils water and sends it as steam to the heating system. The steam condenses in the heating system. The condensate returns to the condensate tank. The condensate pump forwards it to the boiler when needed. Rinse and repeat.

It's a closed loop.

You do NOT want any new water added to that loop.

FStephenMasek

Some of those pipes, such as those at the two traps, appear to be much newer than the other piping. What was the original piping, and why were those changes made?

LivingTheSteam

@Jamie Hall I am hearing exactly what you are saying. It is a closed system unless there are leaks or the water is getting pushed somewhere it shouldn't be the need to add more water is not necessary.

By shutting down the feed line of fresh water to the condesate tank, I am 100% sure that after a cycle runs the switch will kick on asking for more water. I understand by shutting the fresh water supply off then the only water that can get back added is the returned cooled steam. From my experience running this, it isn't going to fulfill the request for water enough and will just stay stuck open waiting for more water.

So I think I see where you are going, there are 2 issues here, sorry if it took me a while
1. Don't let more fresh water into the system so that it doesn't get flooded with water (which solves the original question).

But the second point is if we could figure out where the water is getting pushed to it would not be asking for more, so the assumption here is that the low water float and probe are working properly and water is actually leaving "the loop" somehow requiring more water and then eventually all that added water and displaced water come together flooding the system.....ami right?

Jamie Hall

You might be right. I very sincerely hope not, as that would indicate a really serious leak somewhere in the system. Which, of course, is not impossible -- but certainly not something which we want to have happen.

Ideally -- as I think someone noted -- you should use less than a gallon a month of fresh water. A gallon a week is a bit much, and worth finding a leak. A gallon per cycle is WAY too much.

OK. Try this. With the system cold or nearly so -- let it sit an hour at least since the last cycle -- manually set the boiler water level to 2/3 of the way up the sight glass. Now manually fill the condensate receiver tank up to nearly full. Close the fill line from the domestic water to the receiver tank, but leave the pump on normal automatic.

Now run the system and, if you would, report back on what happens and when for a full heating cycle.

LivingTheSteam

@Jamie Hall at 3 or 4 psi would that be enough pressure to push water out if the boiler and into the steam pipes and other pipes connected to the boiler?

I am more inclined to believe it is pushing water from the boiler somewhere than a leak because it's not that the system has to run for hours before it calls for more water it's pretty much the first cycle or two when after reaching max pressure, which from a cold start is maybe 10 minutes and then every run after is about 4 minutes.

Jamie Hall

Well, perhaps -- 4 psi would be enough to raise the water about 9 feet. But it would take some creatively odd piping to do that -- but we may have some (I'm still suspicious of that coal boiler's piping). Problem with that theory, though, is that sooner or later that water which is pushed out would have to show up somewhere. It can't just vanish. Unless there is an overflow to a drain -- which is also a possibility, of course. There shouldn't be, mind you.

LivingTheSteam

@Jamie Hall the reason I ask the question is because I have a leak that has started in one of the steam runs. I am assuming there shouldn't be enough water just laying in that pipe while the system is running correctly to cause a steady drip. So to me it seems like the water is being pushed out the boiler (when I have the cover of the honeywell transformer off I can see that while the furnace is running, not just after it cycles, that the system is asking for more water). I have attached photos with the steam runs highlighted out of the boiler. You can see where the yellow rag is that is where the water is now dripping from a cross section under insulation. I would think this would normally be a steam filled pipe?

Is it just maybe the pressuretrol building too much pressure and a vaporstat set lower wouldn't push the water out of the boiler like that?

Jamie Hall

I like the drip catcher! Nice touch. If that's a steady drip, that could account for at least some of your lost water -- and it wouldn't have to be water pushing out of the boiler. You could be losing all, or at least most, of the condensate running in that pipe at that location (you may not be catching all that is being lost -- if that's a steam main, you are also losing steam at that location, which you wouldn't see -- and it could be a lot of it).

That is something (along with the other problems!) that you should pay attention to as soon as you can. Two reasons. First, adding that much fresh water is going to shorten the life of that poor boiler -- possibly a lot (like take years off it). Second, if you are indeed losing steam there -- which you almost have to be -- that is killing your efficiency and making your fuel bill soar. (suppose it's two gallons per hour -- which it could be, or even more -- that's almost 15,000 BTUh lost. Makes a great humidifier, though...

mattmia2

There isn't a vent up there, is there? That pipe looks to be covered in asbestos that has been encapsulated somehow so be careful.

You said the water smells oily, perhaps it is surging because there is oil on the water so it is throwing a lot of water in to the mains.

clammy

A quick comment ,as I see you have two lwco a float and a electronic . A possibly better idea is to use the electronic lwco only as a low water cut off shutting off the burner . Then take that 67 lwco and re pipe it off the sight glass assembly . Just add 2 brass cross tees and pipe a 1/2 equilizer line between the sight glass tapping and the a few nipples ,elbows and union and a 3/8 x1/2 reducer and of course re install the sight glass assembly and also use cross tee to flush out the water side piping to the float lwco . Also include a blow down tee w a ball valve it s the wise thing to do . Set it to maintain the proper water line in the boiler and wire it to only power your pump through the existing relay . I ve run into the same sort of issue w condensate pumps used a boiler feed pumps using the factory install lwco ,it usually enables the boiler to only maintain the lowest possible water level in the glass . Go over there wiring and the relay was most like installed due to either the electronic or float lwco where not rated for the amp draw and quickly died .
Looks like you have your hands full it s sure a unique system especially w the coal fired unit . Peace and good luck clammy

LivingTheSteam

Just wanted to give everyone a quick update on this...so it turned out the valve that was to let the water into the condesate tank was closed, thus causing every time the boiler needed more water the condesate tank pump was turning in to add more fresh water and all my radiators weren't getting hot because the condesate water was flooding the return lines so there was no where for the steam to go. 

 
I wish I could say that is the end of the story and all the heat works fine now, because it did....for 1 day. 

Off of the boiler there was a domestic coil. The domestic coil had an opening on it that fed straight into the boiler. An addition was put onto the house and they used that feed to pull hot water out of the boiler and pumped it through baseboards in the addition for hot water heat. Like I said earlier that domestic coil was leaking so it was replaced. When it was replaced, the one that was in was actually put in upside down which now we found out why. Once the replacement was put it right side up it worked fine when the boiler was being flooded, but once things starting working right being right side up put the hole in the coil higher than the water level on the boiler and it no longer could pull water out of the boiler. My HVAC company came today to fix that issue and they decided the best way to do it instead of bending the coils to put it in upside down, they were going to remove a plug on the front of the boiler.....they couldn't get it off and eventually snapped it cracking the boiler and now I need a new furnace. I am in Pennsylvania where it is to get below 0 over the next few days and have no heat and am being told to get a replacement boiler it is 4 months out???!?!?!?

I

Jamie Hall

Glad you found that one problem...

But good grief. What kind of technician would be fool enough to put enough force on a fitting like that to crack the boiler? Is the boiler block really cracked, or just the fitting demolished? There might be a way for an intelligent mechanic to MacGyver a fix to help you limp through...

Long Beach Ed

I feel your pain. You need a new contractor. Coil in upside-down? Some story. Not much of this making sense.

Kickstand55

If a Picture tells a thousand words. In this case, a thousand pictures tell one word. What a mess.
It's really difficult to access a situation based only on pictures, however, it does help to narrow things down.
With a lot posted here, it may be well to try something mentioned. I have reason to start with stopping any fresh water refilling the system to see where it stands.
Not exactly sure where the problem exists. Often many hands are involved in the repair work and changes made without knowledge of the system causing one to look everywhere to solve the issue. Best to go with one at a time based on above suggestions. Then find a "good old steam guy" to look it over. Do this soon as we're becoming extinct.
Check on this site, based on your home region for contractors.
Keep us posted on the progress. We're still learning too!

KC_Jones

First step would be to never allow that company in the house again. Roughly speaking I’d say everything they told you is wrong.

Next thing I’d do is measure all my radiators to figure out the proper boiler size. We can help you with it if you’re interested. Many contractors get this wrong, and it’s a critical part of the process.

Then I’d measure the height of the pipes to see if you even need that tank, I’m speculating you don’t. I mentioned 28” before. That is the height of water needed to get back into the boiler to overcome operating pressure. It equates to 1 PSI. Now, for me, if you properly size the boiler you should never get close to 1 PSI, but the 28-30 is a decent working number. Check this post for a brief explanation. https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/183990/a-b-dimension

After all that I’d start calling contractors to try and find one that knows what they are doing. Ask them for install pictures, or stalk their social media if they have one. I’ve seen plenty of bad ones posted to know they just don’t realize how little they know. Some even put them on their website.

None of that helps with your immediate problem of no heat. You may want to invest in a few space heaters and place them strategically in the house to keep the pipes from freezing. That contractor really screwed you through their incompetence.

CLamb

Jamie Hall said:

Glad you found that one problem...

But good grief. What kind of technician would be fool enough to put enough force on a fitting like that to crack the boiler? Is the boiler block really cracked, or just the fitting demolished? There might be a way for an intelligent mechanic to MacGyver a fix to help you limp through...

Please post better lit pictures of the damage. There might be some way of repairing it even if temporarily.

JUGHNE

That has been a fear for anyone working on an older cast iron boiler.

What kind of tool or force did they apply to the plug?

I consider it good luck to only break off the corners of the plug..........and then quit.

mattmia2

The better question would be why were they trying to remove that plug. The hot water loop was set up through the tankless coil, it shouldn't be connected to the boiler water, it should get its heat through the tankless coil sitting in the boiler water.