Is there a two pipe steam doctor in the house?

takoateli

There is an old house in Ridgewood NJ that has a two pipe steam system, complete with valves on the radiator supplies and traps on the radiator returns. There is a main which circles the basement and returns back to the return at the boiler as well as two returns from all the radiator traps. There is also something called a Wiley Boiler Return size number 1 piped in there.

I don't have a great shot of the return, but coming from the boiler it's like this: Hartford loop, then there is a horizontal run into which tie in the two returns from the radiator traps and the Wiley Boiler Return, then there's a check valve so water can flow towards the boiler and then after that the drop from the supply is tied in.

I opened up the check valve and make sure it's clean and functioning.

The issue was this. The customer had a boiler which we had to replace because it was leaking. Before the replacement, we tried some boiler solder to keep them going till we could arrange the replacement. Knowing what we know now about to pipe systems, we would not have used boiler solder. Though it does seem like it stayed contained in the boiler and didn't migrate out into the system. When we did the replacement the supply and return pipes were clean.

The main floor is not heating. I did find where a support for the supply had broken, causing a sag which formed a trap. I was able to prop that up temporarily. Immediately steam started moving as noted by the banging and pipes getting hot.

We have one trap which is definitely broken. I'm wondering if anybody would know where to get parts or if we are going to have to replace the entire trap.

Is anybody familiar with the Wiley Boiler Return? I read online that when you use one of those devices there needs to be a check valve between the device on the boiler. That's not the way this one is piped.

I'm not sure if propping in the supply fixed the first floor problems. I'm waiting to hear back from the customer.

I posted pictures of the return, as well as a radiator trap and a radiator supply valve.

Any help from someone who is a two pipe steam pro would be greatly appreciated.

Long Beach Ed

Ah, Ridgewood. Probably a nice system. Start out by making sure your steam pressures are very low.

Jamie Hall

That is, or was, a vapour system -- that is, very low pressure -- less than one pound, probably less than half a pound.

Your best bet is going to be to get hold of @EzzyT (you can PM by clicking on the name there). He is an excellent steam man -- and he is also an excellent and patient teacher and explainer. You would do well to see if you can work on this system with him.

pecmsg

X-2 on @EzzyT

KC_Jones

Long Beach Ed said:

Ah, Ridgewood. Probably a nice system. Start out by making sure your steam pressures are very low.

Hopefully they sized the replacement properly which is the way to keep pressures low.

takoateli

Thanks to everyone who replied.

I spoke with the customer today and now that the supply pipe is in it's original position, she has heat on the first floor except for two radiators. One has a busted trap and we have it manually shut off. We'll have to dig into the other one to find out what's going on.

On a side note. we were piping replacement boilers as the original one was piped. Now we are going to do drop headers every time. We're very happy with the results - better heating and no water hammering.

Now I just have to convince my boss to insulate the mains every time, even if they weren't insulated with the old boiler.

Long Beach Ed

Nice job, happy customer.

The drop headers usually make piping easier, but do cost significantly more. Some boilers produce dry steam without them, some produce such wet steam you can't live without one. Some systems have enough headroom to not need one. In some systems it's the last chance to get them to work right!

Big Ed_4

The boiler that are built today are too tight for steam , The header is very important . A steam boiler needs a chest , open vessel before main to catch the dry steam . With newer boilers the header is the chest . You don't want to short change that part of the job .

Oil to do without and pipe insulation you need .

Oil would turn the system into a monster ! The key is to keep it out . Simple , On a install or repair wash every fitting in a bucket of water with detergent before doping up ... Easy to get in and it, **** to take it out .

Pipe insulation smooths out the system .Calms it down . Brings the system back to original specs . Sends the heat up into the radiator and out of the basement..

Steamhead

@takoateli , we have a thread where these Vapor systems are documented. Hopefully these will appear in a future edition of @DanHolohan 's book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating Revisited". Edgar Wiley and Simplex Steam Specialty are well represented therein:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/178152/a-listing-of-vapor-systems-that-dont-yet-appear-in-lost-art

Many of these systems evolved over time. Earlier Wiley-Simplex installations used float-operated damper regulators and water-seal radiator return fittings. This one looks like it uses a Boiler Return Trap (which is actually a pressure-powered pump- see chapter 15 of Lost Art for an in-depth discussion of this) and thermostatic radiator traps.

Barnes & Jones makes repair kits for many traps, and they do list Wiley and Simplex:

https://barnesandjones.com/products/repair-guide/

@EzzyT is a good choice to help out with this system, as are @JohnNY , @clammy and others.

takoateli

Long Beach Ed said:

Nice job, happy customer.

The drop headers usually make piping easier, but do cost significantly more. Some boilers produce dry steam without them, some produce such wet steam you can't live without one. Some systems have enough headroom to not need one. In some systems it's the last chance to get them to work right!

My boss has a lot of plumbing experience, and a good amount of steam experience, but he's not a guru. We did a drop header on the last job and we're sold. From now on we're going to be like Oprah with drop headers (You get a drop header! And you get a drop header! and you get...)

On our last job, the boiler we replace used to cause a little water hammering and noise. The new one with a drop header is completely silent.

takoateli

I found this pic that shows the return layout better. The closest pipe is the end of the supply coming back to the return.

takoateli

I'm reviving this old thread because the system still is not working properly and we're going back.

The customer's ex-boyfriend did some work on the system. We believe he recently replaced all the thermostatic traps at the radiators.

I'll see what we can figure out when we return tomorrow.

Steamhead

I hope they saved the old ones.

mattmia2

Remember a failed open trap on another radiator(or problem with the vapor valve that lets in more steam than the radiator can condense) will let steam in to the returns and prevent other radiators from being able to vent through the return and heat.

Mad Dog_2

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takoateli

A bit more history. The original call was because the boiler was not working. We ended up having to put Boiler solder in it and it overfilled. Since then the boiler has been replaced but I think maybe we have Boiler solder up in the system.

Jamie Hall

Argh. Well, if the boiler overfilled high enough to reach any steam traps or vents, you are going to have to replace them. They're done. Boiler solder doesn't help a leaking boiler much, but it sure messes up other components.

mattmia2

If it was flooded there could be sediment that is now making a dam in a pipe somewhere and holding water and killing steam. There are lots of other possible causes too but flooding moves a partial clog of the pipe from very unlikely to one of the possibilities.

takoateli

Thanks guys! The system did overfill after the boiler solder was added.

I spoke with Hercules to see if there is an antidote.

I was told to flood the system, then with something open at the top floor to allow air into the system drain the system as fast as possible.

If that doesn't get it, repeat the process with a cleaner such as Hercules system cleaner.

If that doesn't get it you have to snake out the pipes.

We flooded the system with water and got some boiler solder out but still have some obstructions so we're going to repeat with cleaner next.

I'm also thinking about blowing out the pipes with high pressure nitrogen.

takoateli

Here are some more pictures

mattmia2

Flushing down to the boiler and the returns from the radiator connections with a hose is probably your best bet. Is it building pressure? i think you need to not build pressure on that system. Might have plugged up or stuck the boiler return device open(some are passive and just force the condensate back to the boiler through a water filled column type of arrangement).

Steamhead

@takoateli , let me make sure I have this right- if I'm standing where the water heater is and looking at the return pipes, which pipe is to the right of the Wiley return trap? Is it the end of the dry return or the end of the steam main?

clammy

What size boiler ? Is that a 3 inch riser or was it reduced? Was this boiler skimmed ,from the drop on the equilizer blocking the skim port i would think not . I see no provision where left to wand the boiler or drain all contents out of the boiler . Possible you have some carry over condensate from the boiler being possible dirty . Are you using a vapor stat as a pressure control or still the pa404 . As other may have asked is the a good low pressure gauge aside from the zero 30 gauge . I usually add nothing and just flush wand and skim boilers I ve installed , some times it takes 2 or 3 times to get all the crap out and at last I’ll add surge master when I’m sure it as clean as it can be just for the o2 and for slight corrosion protection and a great indicator of make up water when it ain’t green they have been adding make up . Follow what other have stated and if there using water seal type traps and graduated supply valve then it gotta be a vapor stat and and low pressure other wise you will be just chasing your tail like a puppy . Usually no part of a steam system I replace has any copper except the water line feeding it . Full port tees w bushing and ball valves for flushing and draining other wise it just glam .
Peace and good luck clammy

takoateli

Thanks everybody for your information. We've been back to the site a couple of times in the past few days.

We did a few different things to flush all of the sealer out of the system.

It's a two-story house, the radiators on the top floor working but the ones on the first floor are not.

Today we tried pulling the main vent out of the return coming from the radiator traps. There was a lot of steam pressure built up in the return which I believe is not correct or normal.

With the pressure in the return from the radiator traps relieved the radiators on the first floor began working.

Do I understand it correctly that there should be no steam pressure in the returns coming from the radiator traps. My understanding is just like radiator vents on a single pipe system, the thermostatic traps in this system should close when the steam reaches them, and there should not be pressure in the return, correct?

Here is a drawing of the boiler layout. We have verified that the hand valve and swing check valve are working.

Steamhead

That main vent was probably not working. Put in a Gorton #2.

Also, the valve to the left of the Wiley Return Trap should be a check valve with the flow direction away from the Return Trap. See chapter 15 of "Lost Art" for the lowdown on how this works.

Jamie Hall

You are quite correct. There should be no pressure -- and certainly no steam -- in the dry returns. This suggests, though, that there are two separate problems. One is that somehow steam is getting into that dry return. A connection which shouldn't be there, a failed open radiator trap, a pair of drips to a wet return which isn't actually wet (too high -- above the water lien), a blown water seal (too much boiler pressure)... several possibilities.

It is likely that the presence of steam closed the main vent on that dry return which allowed the pressure buildup-- but... is there one? Is it functioning?

Go back to basics and take a look at everything -- and think like steam (which should be in the mains and radiators and nowhere else) and air (which has to get out of the radiators and then out of the dry return) and water (which has to get out of the radiators, into the dry return, and then through a drip to the wet return or boiler.

takoateli

clammy said:

What size boiler ? Is that a 3 inch riser or was it reduced? Was this boiler skimmed ,from the drop on the equilizer blocking the skim port i would think not . I see no provision where left to wand the boiler or drain all contents out of the boiler . Possible you have some carry over condensate from the boiler being possible dirty . Are you using a vapor stat as a pressure control or still the pa404 . As other may have asked is the a good low pressure gauge aside from the zero 30 gauge . I usually add nothing and just flush wand and skim boilers I ve installed , some times it takes 2 or 3 times to get all the crap out and at last I’ll add surge master when I’m sure it as clean as it can be just for the o2 and for slight corrosion protection and a great indicator of make up water when it ain’t green they have been adding make up . Follow what other have stated and if there using water seal type traps and graduated supply valve then it gotta be a vapor stat and and low pressure other wise you will be just chasing your tail like a puppy . Usually no part of a steam system I replace has any copper except the water line feeding it . Full port tees w bushing and ball valves for flushing and draining other wise it just glam .
Peace and good luck clammy

The boiler is a peerless 6304. The riser/header is 2". We didn't skim it. We did put in Surgex. No vapor stat yet. Need to get the right pressure gauge. The boiler was just put in last year. Do you think it needs to be wanded?

We flooded the system twice, once with cleaner, and flushed out what we could with a hose. I think all the sealer we added to the old boiler is out of the system.

clammy

Was the boilers riser size reduced ? I usually always do a 3 inch riser n header weather standard or drop. Usually I do this to guarantee the dryest steam is being produced which out dry steam the system never really performs as it should ,it will work and most due ,due to steam being very forgiving . Was the Honeywell pa404 pressuretroll removed n replaced w a vaporstat , was a 0-3 lb low pressure gauge installed or gauge in ounces installed . With out knowing the pressure you operating at it leads to guessing . All older system usually work better at low pressure and on old two pipe it usually helps ,hi pressure is going to show every bad trap leaking supply valve and nut . Low pressure is your friend . I know most guys would give first born over purchasing and installing a vaporstat on there dime if they didn’t include in pricing . Over the many years of being in the phvac business I ve learned one major thing when it come s to steam never be cheap on your near boiler piping and unless it under 100 k input always do over the minimum suggested header size ,on peerless over a 4 section it’s both tappings and no matter what 3 inch riser usually dry steam and mim issues . All aside was this boiler cleaned the old fashion way ,flushing ,wanding ,steam skimming and re flushing . Dirty water is in my eyes the most over looked issue being everybody excepts chemical to do it all and it doesn’t ,aside usually from what u see bad piping under sized headers and improper if no drips where there should be . Dry steam is what a steam system is looking for not wet and not at a high velocity . These are things piping do . Just some suggestions , low pressure also helps keep the steam out of the returns but is not going to fix bad traps but will stop water from being blown out of water seal type traps all food for thought .
Peace and good luck clammy

takoateli

Jamie Hall said:

You are quite correct. There should be no pressure -- and certainly no steam -- in the dry returns. This suggests, though, that there are two separate problems. One is that somehow steam is getting into that dry return. A connection which shouldn't be there, a failed open radiator trap, a pair of drips to a wet return which isn't actually wet (too high -- above the water lien), a blown water seal (too much boiler pressure)... several possibilities.

It is likely that the presence of steam closed the main vent on that dry return which allowed the pressure buildup-- but... is there one? Is it functioning?

Go back to basics and take a look at everything -- and think like steam (which should be in the mains and radiators and nowhere else) and air (which has to get out of the radiators and then out of the dry return) and water (which has to get out of the radiators, into the dry return, and then through a drip to the wet return or boiler.

Thank you sir! The main vents are working. When the system starts from a cold start the main vents let air out as the system fills with steam. When the steam fills the dry return they are closing.

I believe one or more of the upstairs radiator traps are letting steam past, filling the dry return and causing the system to stop working.

What are "drips" to a wet return?

Where would the "water seal" be that could be blown?

Thanks!

takoateli

Steamhead said:

That main vent was probably not working. Put in a Gorton #2.

Also, the valve to the left of the Wiley Return Trap should be a check valve with the flow direction away from the Return Trap. See chapter 15 of "Lost Art" for the lowdown on how this works.

Thanks! So there should be two checks? The one check that's there now is facing to let water coming from the dry return flow towards the boiler.

takoateli

Jamie Hall said:

Argh. Well, if the boiler overfilled high enough to reach any steam traps or vents, you are going to have to replace them. They're done. Boiler solder doesn't help a leaking boiler much, but it sure messes up other components.

We've learned our lesson about boiler solder and two pipe steam systems.

takoateli

Steamhead said:

@takoateli , let me make sure I have this right- if I'm standing where the water heater is and looking at the return pipes, which pipe is to the right of the Wiley return trap? Is it the end of the dry return or the end of the steam main?

That is the return from the radiator traps. The end of the steam mains are to the left of the Wiley Boiler Return.

takoateli

clammy said:

Was the boilers riser size reduced ? I usually always do a 3 inch riser n header weather standard or drop. Usually I do this to guarantee the dryest steam is being produced which out dry steam the system never really performs as it should ,it will work and most due ,due to steam being very forgiving . Was the Honeywell pa404 pressuretroll removed n replaced w a vaporstat , was a 0-3 lb low pressure gauge installed or gauge in ounces installed . With out knowing the pressure you operating at it leads to guessing . All older system usually work better at low pressure and on old two pipe it usually helps ,hi pressure is going to show every bad trap leaking supply valve and nut . Low pressure is your friend . I know most guys would give first born over purchasing and installing a vaporstat on there dime if they didn’t include in pricing . Over the many years of being in the phvac business I ve learned one major thing when it come s to steam never be cheap on your near boiler piping and unless it under 100 k input always do over the minimum suggested header size ,on peerless over a 4 section it’s both tappings and no matter what 3 inch riser usually dry steam and mim issues . All aside was this boiler cleaned the old fashion way ,flushing ,wanding ,steam skimming and re flushing . Dirty water is in my eyes the most over looked issue being everybody excepts chemical to do it all and it doesn’t ,aside usually from what u see bad piping under sized headers and improper if no drips where there should be . Dry steam is what a steam system is looking for not wet and not at a high velocity . These are things piping do . Just some suggestions , low pressure also helps keep the steam out of the returns but is not going to fix bad traps but will stop water from being blown out of water seal type traps all food for thought .
Peace and good luck clammy

Thanks. The boiler is less than a year old so I don't think it needs to be wanded. About a week ago we added a drop header for good measure.

clammy

After reading your reply 63-04 you say ,well I doubt I would have risked a 2 inch header , as stated I get beaten all the time by the all 2 inch header installer yeah it’s much cheaper but it ain’t better . As for wanding and cleaning ah yeah chemicals ain’t gonna do it . If piped properly and clean the water line shouldn’t bounce more then 1/2 inch durning the cycle . I would suggest your boss be the one who deals w it he sold it and he did the 2 inch header and should have honestly cleaned after the first steaming and then one or two return visits to ensure it’s clean . It s really part of the job which most shrug off and state that’s the way steam is well I’m here tell ya that ain’t the way it’s suppose to be . It looks from the eq drop that skimming wasn’t gonna happen when you pipe your eq drop in front of the skim port it’s highly unlikely it was in the thought pattern and really over looked . It’s a pet peeve of mine to make sure the skim port can be used other wise it serves zero purpose . The use of the standard boiler drains are crap I usually throw them in my brass scape and install full port ball valve for reverse flushing and removing all the crap the always returns when a new boiler is installed . It isn’t some thing that happens w just about every steam boiler ,multi returns visits to get the system clean,again personally the most common issue w mis behaving steam boiler is bad piping ,not cleaned . This is really the second half of the job and the one most don’t price in until beaten badly then they learn . Just like undersized header and wet steam there common and a lot of system will operate but as I always say never what they should be and the biggest thing the in knowing your successful in your install is when customer never knows weather the heat is on or off they just know that there comfortable . This what we all should aim for being we are all in the indoor comfort business ?
Peace and good luck clammy

takoateli

clammy said:

After reading your reply 63-04 you say ,well I doubt I would have risked a 2 inch header , as stated I get beaten all the time by the all 2 inch header installer yeah it’s much cheaper but it ain’t better . As for wanding and cleaning ah yeah chemicals ain’t gonna do it . If piped properly and clean the water line shouldn’t bounce more then 1/2 inch durning the cycle . I would suggest your boss be the one who deals w it he sold it and he did the 2 inch header and should have honestly cleaned after the first steaming and then one or two return visits to ensure it’s clean . It s really part of the job which most shrug off and state that’s the way steam is well I’m here tell ya that ain’t the way it’s suppose to be . It looks from the eq drop that skimming wasn’t gonna happen when you pipe your eq drop in front of the skim port it’s highly unlikely it was in the thought pattern and really over looked . It’s a pet peeve of mine to make sure the skim port can be used other wise it serves zero purpose . The use of the standard boiler drains are crap I usually throw them in my brass scape and install full port ball valve for reverse flushing and removing all the crap the always returns when a new boiler is installed . It isn’t some thing that happens w just about every steam boiler ,multi returns visits to get the system clean,again personally the most common issue w mis behaving steam boiler is bad piping ,not cleaned . This is really the second half of the job and the one most don’t price in until beaten badly then they learn . Just like undersized header and wet steam there common and a lot of system will operate but as I always say never what they should be and the biggest thing the in knowing your successful in your install is when customer never knows weather the heat is on or off they just know that there comfortable . This what we all should aim for being we are all in the indoor comfort business ?
Peace and good luck clammy

I just saw you're in Mahwah. So are we. I work at Bolkema Fuel.

I agree that installs should be done to best practices. We're learning on the job here. I've asked for training and my boss just says "get it done". I've told him our training methods are like that of a mother bird. She pushes the babies out of the nest and says "fly baby bird".

Since the boiler is less than a year old, and we've drained the system a few times, do you think there's any reason to skim and wand the boiler?

Jamie Hall

If you do have a failed trap, that would certainly be a good bit of the problem. As I said, there should never be steam in a dry return!

Drips is a term I use for more or less vertical pipes which go from low points on steam mains or dry returns -- usually the ends, but by no means always -- down to a wet return. They are there to allow the condensate which is always present to get back to the wet return. If the wet return is below the water line -- and, therefore, wet -- steam can't get from the drip from the steam main down that far, and so there is no chance to cross into a dry return.

A water seal is vaguely similar. What you have there is a vertical pipe down from a steam main at a low point, then a 90 and a short nipple and another 90 and a pipe back up to a handy dry return. They work -- if they work -- because that U bend fills with condensate, and the difference in pressure between the steam main and the dry return isn't enough to push the water out.

If they work. They are very much dependent on keeping the pressure in the steam main low enough. For each pound of pressure in the steam main the water seal legs must be at least 28 inches long -- and half again as much (42 inches) is preferrable. For each pound. They are a particular vulnerability on old vapour systems -- designed to run at say 8 ounces -- which have been "modernized" with a pressuretrol and are now running on 2 pounds. And they lurk in dark corners...

clammy

Yeah in Mahwah ,I worked at Ramsey oil for a few years off n on and as a sub later. They all where great guys and I miss the one who is gone not a day goes by that he doesn’t come to mind . But in the oil industry sorry to say the installation end is the tougher side . Keeping the customer ,losing to gas or worse a competitor and doing it at a low price just to keep them . I know been there and always refused the cut and slide being I showed why this did not make financial sense due to extra return calls for failed components which where not replaced and not charging due to customer being irate thinking there new boiler means new when unless doing a real upgrade in some cases it old junk . I had them adapt to complete updates when quoting replacement boilers it made more sense and they got paid for parts they would have been replacing for free for customer relations .
The oil side is a great place to see old ancient stuff saw more working there then the prior 20 years in the hvac side at least on the steam residential side and at least older 2 pipe vapor stuff all sorts of stuff and all from the early on mostly nys .
Stick to it and learn all you can , no one knows it all and never think you do is the key to learning and when stuck always go back to the basics some times it that simple ,it’s far better then going down the wrong road .
Peace and good luck clammy

Steamhead

takoateli said:

Steamhead said:

That main vent was probably not working. Put in a Gorton #2.

Also, the valve to the left of the Wiley Return Trap should be a check valve with the flow direction away from the Return Trap. See chapter 15 of "Lost Art" for the lowdown on how this works.

Thanks! So there should be two checks? The one check that's there now is facing to let water coming from the dry return flow towards the boiler.

Yes. The "Return Trap" is basically a pressure-powered pump. It's there to make sure the water can return if the boiler pressure gets high enough to keep it from returning by gravity. The one in @DanHolohan 's book is a Dunham but it works the same way.

mattmia2

@takoateli , get and read a copy of The Lost Art of Steam Heating. You'll know what to do next time and why what you're seeing now is happening:
https://www.heatinghelp.com/store/detail/the-lost-art-of-steam-heating-revisited

takoateli

After a lot of troubleshooting we finally determined what the problem is with this system.

The end of the supplies just above where they join the boiler return were both completely plugged. You can't see it in the photos but they are completely plugged. When we cut those pipes out, the pipe above the clog was full of water and it didn't run out at all.

Condensate was backing up and completely flooding all of the first floor piping. That's why only the second floor was working.

There still is one more clog somewhere on the first floor in the supply.

Also today I installed one of the much more sensitive mercury switch based pressure controls so we can keep the pressure very low.

ethicalpaul

Well maybe that was it, and maybe not. I don't see a clog, just a reduction. But maybe there's a clog not shown in the photos.