Boiler Cleaning - TSP vs Washing Soda?

AdmiralYoda

My Peerless boiler is 42 years old and going strong... but does tend to get dirty and after a month or two the water is muddy enough to not be able to see through. I'll drain, flush and refill and it is back to muddy water after a month.

I'd like to avoid harsh chemicals but I've read on here that TSP or Washing Soda can be helpful in removing gunk, scale and rust. Is one better than the other?

I have no surging nothing floating on the top of the water. Just rusty gunky muck.

Derheatmeister

From Wikipedia:TSP is still sold and used as a cleaning agent, but since the late 1960s, its use has diminished in the United States and many other parts of the world because, like many phosphate-based cleaners, it is known to cause extensive eutrophication of lakes and rivers once it enters a water system.

mattmia2

TSP is a pretty strong detergent. Figuring out how to get a wand in there and flush the crud out with a jet of water will probably do more than adding detergent.

AdmiralYoda

@mattmia2 I've been a bit cautious over sticking a wand in there. I have two options. First is the 3/4" boiler drain that I would have to snake something flexible through, and the second is a 1.5-2" tapping at the bottom of the boiler that has never been removed.

I suppose I could get some 1/4" copper tubing, smash and solder the end, drill a bunch of holes in it and snake it through the boiler drain. Is there a "Professional" version of what I've just described?

And I did look at my Peerless manual. They recommend Washing Soda to aid in skimming, but that's about it.

ethicalpaul

Why is it getting muddy? Are you keeping your PH up to greatly reduce corrosion? If so, then this is probably old crud that is continuing to work loose and I would just drain it once a year.

I would only (and did) use washing soda or TSP on a new boiler to get out some of the manufacturing oil before skimming.

AdmiralYoda

@ethicalpaul I'm probably overexaggerating the muddiness a bit... but yes I use RectorSeal 8-way after draining the boiler at the beginning of the season and once or twice during season. It gets cruddy enough where I'll get surging out of seemingly nowhere.

I only add enough to get the pH to about 9.5-10ish. This will be my third year using it.

So yes, the muck is probably just slowly coming loose. I suppose my hope was to expedite this process, but safely. Perhaps a dedicated boiler cleaning chemical would help?

I know I can get Hercules Boiler and Heating System Cleaner locally. Perhaps it is worth a shot? Or maybe the 8-way is just the way to go...just longer term?

The Steam Whisperer

We've found the 8 way will continue to gradually clean the boiler over a few years. We've started doing TSP on installs to help move the cleaning process along.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I have only used tsp although some boiler mfgs use washing soda i always used tsp because it worked every time

ethicalpaul

What @The Steam Whisperer said matches what I saw with my old boiler. And sounds similar to yours. I’d just keep doing what you’re doing with draining if it starts to surge with the amount of 8 way you’re using.

my boiler never did get really clean but I replaced it so it didn’t have the chance.

STEAM DOCTOR

Peerless says to keep water hot but not steaming. Steaming will cause the contaminants to mix with the water instead of floating to the top. Question. Isn't that counterintuitive? I would think that it's ideal to have the contaminants mixed with the water. This way, draining the water, will remove contaminants. Obviously not everything will come out this way and skimming will still be necessary, but I would think a pre-skim flush would speed up the process. I would think that the best idea is to boil water with appropriate cleanser inside, flush a few times, put more cleanser inside and heat up water, skim, and then flush a few more times. Interested in everyone's thoughts

ethicalpaul

I haven’t looked at their language in a while but I bet they are afraid if it gets boiling it will fill the whole system with suds.

but I agree that would give the best cleaning action! 😬

AdmiralYoda

Wouldn't that be something for a new complaint around here..... soap suds spitting out of my vents!

@ethicalpaul sounds like another experiment for your boiler and sight glasses!

STEAM DOCTOR

I would think that you would cut power to the boiler after a relatively short amount of steaming. Will not really give room for carryover. But in any event, peerless is concerned with the contaminants mixing with the water, not with carryover.

Long Beach Ed

Beware that the 42-year old mung isn't the only thing plugging up leaks in the bottom nipples. I wouldn't mess with it too aggressively. As Ethical suggests, I'd just flush it down.

ethicalpaul

> But in any event, peerless is concerned with the contaminants mixing with the water, not with carryover.

I'm curious what this means. What are contaminants? Aren't they in the water already whatever they are?

EBEBRATT-Ed

They don't want the boiler steaming so that the floating stuff will stay on top and be skimmed off. Skimming is to get rid of floating stuff which raises surface tension and cause the water to roil around and cause carryover. The stuff in the water that does not float they are less concerned with as It doesn't impede boiling.

You get rid of that by blowing down and draining.

ethicalpaul

Ahh of course, I forgot that these directions were for a new install, even though I followed them myself a couple years ago...my memory LOL

AdmiralYoda

So I suppose I'll ask this another way. I'm due to perform my yearly boiler skim anyways...would there be any harm in using washing soda to help? I never really get anything from skimming anyways but I don't mind going above and beyond a bit as long as it isn't potentially harmful.

ethicalpaul

I wouldn't bother. The TSP is there to help break up the large amount of oil from manufacturing I think. But as someone who keeps putting stuff in my boiler to see what it does, I'm sure it won't hurt if you drain it all out.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@AdmiralYoda

Not going to hurt anything to use washing soda or tsp. You might get some gunk out of it

mattmia2

Unless you are adding oil to the system, there is no reason so skim it regularly.

PGB1

I'm late to this thread, having just discovered it while searching for something else. Here's a caution I learned some time ago:

A chiller manufacturer's representative warned me once to avoid TSP for cleaning the cast iron heat exchanger and the condenser water tube heat exchanger passages (mixed metals) because of the very high pH when mixed to a solution that will be effective. (About 1%)

Sodium carbonate (washing soda) was suggested instead because it has a lower pH. It also rinses with no residue to manually remove.

I don't know if TSP will cause boiler problems, but thought it wise to post here.


The Numbers-
TSP has a very high pH, at 12.5 for a 1% solution. Washing soda is lower. Unfortunately, I can't find the washing soda pH chart. If I remember correctly, pure sodium carbonate mixed to 1% was 10.5pH.
The pH scale isn't linear, it's logarithmic, so a one point change is substantial.


Sorta Off Topic, But Interesting-
Interestingly, the TDS sheets for many latex paint & primer products say to avoid TSP for pre-paint washing. Some tech supports say it's because of the very high pH, some say because of the hard-to-remove residue that is left behind.

Hope This Helps Someone Someday!
Paul

clammy

If your boiler is continually getting muddy usually it from the wet returns if you have them ,also look at dry returns who main vents are not locate in the correct location then your dry return is not completely vented and can create some rust and mud . I personally use to always clean by steam boilers w tsp by not steaming the boiler but get it’s water hot and filled up to the crown of the boiler and use a transfer pump to circulate the fluid inside of the boiler for a half an hour then skim and flush and drain the boiler boiler completely . Using the return inlet if piped to do so and wand the bottom of the boiler to wash the rest of the tsp out . On a peerless 63 the location of the safety valve can be removed and wanding w a 1/2 copper through the 3/4 tap allows you to flush the tops of each section . Basically I have found that skimming does remove a lot of junk and takes some time and usually a return visit on some systems that where neglected ,ie not flushing of wet returns or annual flushing of the boiler bottom ie occasionally wanding the boiler to remove mud build up in the bottom of the section and yes this happens over time but if your returns piped into the boiler are not full port tee s w plugs to allow so your outta luck and will find it difficult to wand and flush properly .
Personally I never just plug or reduce return inlets on the boiler even though most always bush it down to 2 inch just cheap and see no valve in wasting money on a 2 1/2 x 2 tee cheap **** they usually never flush or wand there are very few who do know how to clean a steam boiler properly and most owners don’t see the value or merit in it until the boiler cracks from blocked sections being no one ever explained it to them in a way they could understand . I really don’t rely on chemicals to do the job and at most I use is one can of surge master basically for the o2 scavenger and it helps keep any oil off the waters surface where surging happens . Plus as time has passed I see that there less mud build up on the crowns of the boilers when I go and do service and wand the boiler from the top .
To myself when replacing a poorly but working steam boiler w dog poo near boiler piping I know in my heart that mud and crap shall be returning to the boiler due to dry steam circulating through the system which over time shall return mud and rust to the boiler either through dry or wet returns through the condensate .
Most may think and say steam is easy and really very basic and it i seems it but it’s the cause and effect of a poor installed and piped boiler is far reaching and even after one is installed perfect and producing dry steam all the crap in the mains from being poorly piped sometimes makes proper clean a hassle w return visits and dirty sight glasses . As of the last 2 or 3 years I ve been installing califee de mineralizing filters on make up water lines to get those tds down to manufactures specs or close to it on both steam and hot water boiler it’s the correct thing to do if you read the directions . There’s a sort of old saying steam is very forgiving until a point and most poorly piped steam boiler will work but usually there function and operation is far from what it should be because steam is very forgiving and most don’t realize what’s it s like to have a properly operating steam system usually when operating correctly like any home comfort system you don’t even know it’s on you just know your comfortable neither cold or hot just perfect
Peace and good luck clammy

AdmiralYoda

For what its worth...back in December/January when I posted this I didn't use either. The 43 year old boiler is in great shape but I like to tinker with things. I bought some "Scout Steam Boiler Cleaner". It contains some TSP.

Did it clean anything? I don't know. I left it in there for a week or so. It did turn the water a hazy white-ish color and the solids tended to clog up the LWCO. I'm not sure if it was stuff that the Scout had cleaned out or if it was the Scout itself.

I couldn't tell you if the whole LWCO was clogged up or if some solids had just accumulated at the LWCO drain valve. A few taps on the LWCO and it whatever was gunked up blew through.

I'm satisfied that the boiler is clean as a whistle. With regular use of RectorSeal 8-way I barely have any corrosion or gunk to drain out anyways.