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occasional pipe hammer in a hydronic heating system.

John732
John732 Member Posts: 13
Hello looking for some solutions to a possible on going hammering problem. i recently installed a utica hydronic boiler with 3 honeywell 4 wire zone valves on the supply side. Which the way it was before I only change the design by moving piping off to side as to not have it directly over boiler, I also changed the boiler piping as to now I have it pumping away and not the pump on return as it was before, I also have a spiral vent with web stone expansion valve and tank coming out the bottom. All textbook stuff. I got a call back saying from customer at 4 o'clock in morning he got a bang or hammer sound from heating pipes and was concerned. I decided to bleed pipes again. and tried to re-create the issue but could not get it to do it again. Customer said it only happen a couple times at random. we really tried to see if happened again and took our time, but it did not. I pretty much do my boilers textbook standard installs and never experience this complaint. The only things that may change is where I place my zone valve on return or supply and or sometimes, or I use pumps to do the zoning, but this was not the case. either way I never had this complaint. I would have put zone valves on return, but we tried to save them a few bucks and left return the way it was set up with boiler drains and ball valves, didn't see any cause to change. I only replaced boiler drains to new and put caps. Any feed back or experiences anyone could share i would appreciate. Thank you.

Comments

  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,016
    any chance the zone valves are in backwards?
    known to beat dead horses
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 19,954
    Make sure all your zone valves are actually flowing in the correct direction. A fast -- especially spring -- closing zone valve flowing so that it closes with, rather than against, the flow will occasionally bang.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    John732
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 17,531
    what size circulator?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    mattmia2
  • John732
    John732 Member Posts: 13
    Im pretty sure valves are in right direction but I will check or have customer check , I tried to look at my pictures but when I zoom in it fuzzy. Thanks guys for feed back . 
  • John732
    John732 Member Posts: 13
    The pump is a taco ecm 007 that comes with boiler. Original pump was a 007 taco but not Ecm , old style. 
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 17,531
    Every now and then spring return valves develop a hammer, all brands. Is the circ a delta p type?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    John732
  • John732
    John732 Member Posts: 13
    I'll be honest not sure what a delta p circulator is, i googled it to try to understand but i don't think the ecm taco 007 is a delta p pump. this is a residential application and pump is sent with boiler.
  • John732
    John732 Member Posts: 13
    i read stuff about clamps on pipes but as far as i can see everything in basement was clamped but im thinking not going up wall which i can't see. the old boiler had pump on return and was old style 007 pump and maybe boiler absorbed the hammer, so they never notice. now with new ecm pump is stronger and i put-on supply-side, pumping away. Maybe i should of put zone valves on return side but would of cost them more and could have avoided the hammer. I didn't do because like i stated i didn't touch the return because all the bleeder drains and ball valves were fine the way they were but feeling like the real cause is pipes going up inside walls not clamped properly is the real cause which i can't fix. so i have to come up with a compromise and fix situation.
  • John732
    John732 Member Posts: 13
    What if i resort to putting in an old style pump 007 back and take out ecm taco ...has anyone tried this?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 17,531
    The 007E is shown as ideal for zone valve systems. Looks like it keeps a constant head across varying flow requirements, saves electricity as it is a more efficient motor.
    The standard 007 have more of a curve to it pump spec.

    Delta P circs will modulate their speed based on zones opening and closing, attempting to not ever over-pump.

    Try the standard 007 first, since you have it.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    John732
  • John732
    John732 Member Posts: 13
    WELL update to my problem. i tried putting pump on return leaving the zones on supply but that didn't work. (My thought was if pump was causing the problem so i tried to see if on return it would cushion the effect into boiler.) so, i called on a friend to help me brainstorm to help this client stop this water hammer. he said try manually creating the issue without using tstat, his thought it could be zone valve. also, customer set up a camera as well to see exactly what was happening when the hammer accrues. So, it seems the when the main floor is calling and bedroom zone (2nd floor) calling and then the bedroom zone satisfies as the zone closes the hammer happens, but only when that scenario happens. it does not happen any other sequence at all. really crazy thing. so manually playing with bedroom zone. i open up zone and have main floor calling as well then close it hammers as i let spring close but if i put my finger on the lever to slow it down it doesn't happen. so, i suggested to customer that we change zone valve maybe it's a defective. so, we were able to control the hammer by slowing the closing of valve. it could be the way the dynamics of existing piping is but i have no control of that and i can't see nothing physical wrong or different than anything else i have seen. so in conclusion despite my recommendation trying to get a new zone valve the customer did something to slow closing of valve and is happy now. everything works great. he is some mechanical engineer he says so this is the end of my story. crazy never had this before but is a learn experience. thank you all who have gave me some input.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 17,531
    John732 said:
    WELL update to my problem. i tried putting pump on return leaving the zones on supply but that didn't work. (My thought was if pump was causing the problem so i tried to see if on return it would cushion the effect into boiler.) so, i called on a friend to help me brainstorm to help this client stop this water hammer. he said try manually creating the issue without using tstat, his thought it could be zone valve. also, customer set up a camera as well to see exactly what was happening when the hammer accrues. So, it seems the when the main floor is calling and bedroom zone (2nd floor) calling and then the bedroom zone satisfies as the zone closes the hammer happens, but only when that scenario happens. it does not happen any other sequence at all. really crazy thing. so manually playing with bedroom zone. i open up zone and have main floor calling as well then close it hammers as i let spring close but if i put my finger on the lever to slow it down it doesn't happen. so, i suggested to customer that we change zone valve maybe it's a defective. so, we were able to control the hammer by slowing the closing of valve. it could be the way the dynamics of existing piping is but i have no control of that and i can't see nothing physical wrong or different than anything else i have seen. so in conclusion despite my recommendation trying to get a new zone valve the customer did something to slow closing of valve and is happy now. everything works great. he is some mechanical engineer he says so this is the end of my story. crazy never had this before but is a learn experience. thank you all who have gave me some input.
    I’d be curious to know his fix for slowing the close. It is a spring return  zone valve? What brand?
     
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,815
    I just perused this, my take. What is happening I think is that if you are pumping into Honeywell zone valves with an ECM pump and this only happens when one zone is on and doesn't happen when several zones are on, then, the zone valve closes faster than the ECM pump can ramp down and causes a water hammer. I have put washing machine anti-hammer air absorbers in to cut the thump. But as has been suggested on this site, remove one of the springs in the zone valve so that the valve closes slower works, too. Can also use Taco Sentry zone valves that close slower.