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Slant Fin Victory 120 pilot assembly ?

Hello, 
I have a 1999 Slant Fin Victory 2 boiler model VH-120 EP. 
I believe I Need to replace the pilot, igniter and sensor which is part number 440-751 . We have propane as our heat source. I have looked everywhere I have been directed to online and no one has the part. A company that services our boiler says they can’t find one either . It’s hard to believe we may have to get a new boiler because of the part not being available but we may. Does anyone have any suggestions on where to look for this part? 
What’s currently happening is that the boiler is trying to ignite to heat our hot water but the ignator is not producing any spark. We have cleaned all contacts but no luck. 

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Comments

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,177
    edited September 10
    After market parts are available.  That appears to be a Honeywell Smart Valve pilot assembly Q3450C1185 with the ability to swap orifices for natural or LP gas.  https://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-Q3450C1185-Pilot-Burner-for-Natural-Gas-with-a-BCR-18-Orifice-Left-Single-Tip-Style-C-Mounting. with this orifice https://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-390686-1-LP-Orifice-for-Pilot-Burners-Q314-Q345-Q3450-Q3451-Q3452

    Can you take a picture of the gas valve and also take a picture of the pilot assembly?  you may need to take the lower front cover of the heater off to access the pilot area.   Just for verification.   The Gas valve part number might also help.  Not the Slant Fin part number... The Honeywell number.
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org

  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    Thanks for the response I I’ll take some pictures and get information that you requested as soon as I return home.
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    I was able to take some pictures but I will include numbers as well:
    the fuse panel where the spark chord is plugged in is a Honeywell S8600H

    the gas valve and regulator is a 
    VR8204A 2258 it’s a Honeywell also. 

    I also included a picture of the current spark and pilot assembly . 
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31

  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31

  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31

  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    It’s basically this part but that’s the natural gas version in the picture 
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,177
    edited September 10
    You DO NOT have a SMART VALVE, so the part I mentioned is incorrect. You should purchase the natural gas part you pictured above and swap the orifice with this one. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-390686-1-LP-Orifice-for-Pilot-Burners-Q314-Q345-Q3450-Q3451-Q3452
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org

  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    that thanks I’ll take a look I’m not confident that the natural gas part was available but I’ll check a few websites. 

    Another question , is there a safe way to manually light the pilot on this type of system. The front of the boilers says you should not try to light it. Our hot water heater is hooked up to the boiler so no boiler equals no hot water! 
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,177
    You can retrofit an aftermarket pilot to do the same job.
    You can change the gas valve to use a standing pilot and thermocouple in order to get by until the parts are available.
    There are more than one way to get a gas flame to operate. Direct ignition gas valves that don't require a pilot at all.
    Your boiler may already have an area for the mounting of a hot surface ignitor for that purpose.

    You will not need a new boiler, you need a new service technician with a little more experience.
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org

    mattmia2
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    Thanks for the information I will speak to the service manager about the options you suggested. The problem about the parts is that there is a chance the parts may not be available again as slant fin was bought out and is not supporting that unit. 

    Is there any safe way for me to light the pilot with either a match or an electric grill speaker? Once the pilot was lit the boiler previously was working fine . 
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,177
    edited September 10
    Here is one that will do the same thing available @ RE Michel
    and available at Supplyhouse.comhttps://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-Q345U1005-Universal-Intermittent-Pilot-Burner-for-NG-LP-w-Target-Style-Hood


    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org

  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    Thanks so much! So those would
    both use our existing power chord and flexible pilot gas tubing? 

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,177
    yes
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 398

    What’s currently happening is that the boiler is trying to ignite to heat our hot water but the ignator is not producing any spark.

    Has anyone done any real troubleshooting here ? Where does the 'trying' process stop ? It seems they want to replace the part that is the most Serviceable by just cleaning. Or are they just trying to replace the cheapest part first ? Changing parts that are not bad is a slow, painful, expensive process.

    Anyway, all in stock here for a reasonable repair, as near as I can tell.

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-Q3451U1000-Universal-Intermittent-Pilot-Burner-w-Target-Style-Hood-Integral-Ignition-Wire

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-S8600H3002-Intermittent-Pilot-Control-for-LP-NG-90-Second-Trial-Time-Lockout

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-VR8204A2076-Standard-Dual-Intermittent-Pilot-Gas-Valve

    Your gas valve looks like it has a 90° fitting on it that may have to be transplanted if an exact replacement valve cannot be sourced (that is if the gas valve happens to be the actual the problem).

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,591
    check the wire to the electrode very carefully too. it could be arcing to something and shorting out the spark for ignition but still providing the flame rectification signal to prove the pilot. the electrode could be cracked or bent too far from ground but it is a lot more likely the wire or the control is the issue
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,177
    Does the S8600 ignition control make a spark? If the control is not making a spark, then changing the pilot or the wires will not solve the problem. @109A_5 has made a good point. How did the original technician determine the pilot assembly was the problem?
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org

    mattmia2109A_5HomerJSmith
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    Thanks for the input. The tech I spoke with listened to what was happening with the spark occurring but it would intermittently not light the pilot. 
    When this would occur , if I cleaned the flame sensor off with a wire brush the system would spark and light . 
    However starting last Thursday the ignition system is not sparking at all when the boiler is called to fire up when our hot water tank needs heat. 

  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    I did order the pilot assembly but is there any other way to check and see if I need to order a new igniter cable or control?
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    I attempted to Iight the pilot with a long electric grill starter tonight but it seems like there is no gas coming from the pilot. 
    I used a volt tester on the leads feeding off the Honeywell controller and none lite the volt tester.. could this mean the controller is faulty or blown out?
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 398
    Hello @andrewkelly1983,

    The original pilot assembly may simply need a good through cleaning since the spark electrical current could be conforming to the contour of the contaminated insulator and not jumping the air gap. I would use a 'nonmetallic' method to clean the electrode rod and the insulator. I can't stress the 'nonmetallic' method enough !!!
    mattmia2 said:

    check the wire to the electrode very carefully too. it could be arcing to something and shorting out the spark for ignition but still providing the flame rectification signal to prove the pilot. the electrode could be cracked or bent too far from ground but it is a lot more likely the wire or the control is the issue

    I would verify system power and connections first. Also, I would expect 24 VAC between the PV terminals at the gas valve when the system is attempting to light the pilot.

    All work with the High Voltage (HV) cable should be done with the system power disconnected. Do not touch any HV item while doing a test. If something unexpected happens back off and shut off the power to the system.

    If the (HV) cable unplugs from the original pilot assembly a screw driver could be used to make a 'Test' spark gap. The 'Test' spark gap should have the same gap as the one in your pilot assembly. The 'Test' spark gap should be away from you and anything flammable. I would then cycle the system to see if the spark is consistent and strong and the lockout function works.

    Then if no spark using the original HV cable, I have alligator clip leads that are about 3 feet long that are made made with insulated wire rated at thousands of Volts. With the original HV cable disconnected from the S8600H unit, then connecting the clip leads at the HV terminal at the S8600H unit I would set up a 'Test' spark gap that has about the same gap as the one in your pilot assembly, maybe slightly bigger. The 'Test' spark gap should be away from you and anything flammable. I would then cycle the system to see if the spark is consistent and strong and the lockout function works.

    If the spark is good with the clip leads the High Voltage wire is bad.

    If no spark at all and you are sure the power to the S8600H unit is good the S8600H is most likely bad.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    Thanks for the detailed response. What you are describing is likely
    above mechanical ability levels. 
    Given that the total cost to replace both the HV chord and the controller is less then 200$, would make sense just to replace both? 

    When installing the new S8600H is it done by simply by attaching the new unit where the old one was mounted and plugging in the wires in the same pattern as the old unit? t
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 398
    Hello @andrewkelly1983,

    Thanks for the detailed response. What you are describing is likely above mechanical ability levels.

    No problem, better Safe than Sorry, I have many many years experience working on a wide variety of High Voltage equipment and I realize others don't.
    Given that the total cost to replace both the HV chord and the controller is less then 200$, would make sense just to replace both?
    Well... that is certainly one method. I guess the problem I have with that method is say you replace that stuff and it still does not work ? I would hate to find out that the spark problem is a loose wire or a bad control device after you spent a bunch of $$$. Personally I like testing and not guessing. Troubleshooting and testing if done correctly will usually focus you to the defective part. That being said I do not know how much testing you personally can do. Also I do not know how much actual troubleshooting the Service Tech actually did. He may be absolute correct and the pilot assembly replacement may fix it, however if that is the case I would think a good cleaning would fix it too unless that assembly is damaged, like a carbon track embedded into the insulator.
    When installing the new S8600H is it done by simply by attaching the new unit where the old one was mounted and plugging in the wires in the same pattern as the old unit? t
    For the most part yes, turn the system power off. I would verify the nothing has changed if the new unit is a different or later version. Make sure the wires go to the same functions or labels and all connections are secure.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    I just went ahead and ordered the replacement control and the HV wire. 
    The rubber boot piece on our current HV wire was starting to crack and therefore was not fitting tight to the bottom of the igniter. 

    So when all parts arrive I will have a controller, HV wire and the pilot/ignition assembly. 
    Is there a preferred order to try those parts out in?
    I was thinking it would make sense to try replacing the HV wire first to see if that was the issue. Then move to the controller and last to the pilot/igniter … 

    thoughts? 
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 398
    Hello @andrewkelly1983,

    Another thing you could do (before changing anything and just informational at this point), with a flashlight in hand for safety, fire the boiler with the room completely dark and see if you can see a spark somewhere it should not be.

    I was thinking it would make sense to try replacing the HV wire first to see if that was the issue.

    You could, it maybe is the most superficial and the easiest item to swap out.

    I probably would change the pilot/ignition assembly first unless you know the original is pristine and since that was the original diagnosis (diagnosis verification). Also it is probably the most work or the most awkward work.

    If the HV wire looks dilapidated in any way I would change it too (after original diagnosis verification).

    Then if it still does not fire up change the controller.

    Also I would keep the old parts and the packaging and paperwork of the new parts for future reference, but that is me.



    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 398
    Hello @andrewkelly1983,

    Is there a preferred order to try those parts out in?
    I was thinking it would make sense to try replacing the HV wire first to see if that was the issue. Then move to the controller and last to the pilot/igniter … 

    thoughts? 

    Obviously you can change the parts in any order you see fit. And if you change the parts one at a time followed by a test you will probably know what failed. I understand you just want to get it up and running and get on with life. And I don't know if you plan to return unused parts or keep them as spares or just do a wholesale change out to 'freshen' up the system.

    I tend to use a structured order that best matches my personal troubleshooting strategy if I am using a part swapping strategy for troubleshooting. Since one failure can cause another failure and you don't want to damage new parts, the pilot/ignition assembly is in the most hostile environment and may be considered a consumable too I would change it first. Depending on the equipment, parts swapping can be very expensive and time consuming. And I like to know what actually failed and why, most folks don't care as long as it now works. Firing the 'Parts Cannon' as some folks call it does not always result in a fix and if it does you don't know what fixed it depending on how you swapped the parts. So if you have the equipment for many years you may not recognize the signature of a certain part's repeat failure. More often than not proper troubleshooting results in replacing one part for the fix, less parts expense and less time consuming, less overall cost for a repair.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    All of this information has been extremely helpful. It’s great to hear how experienced individuals try to trouble shoot problems. As you said my main goal right now is to just get the system up and running again. The long term plan is to likely replace this boiler in April 2023 when we will be moving to natural
    gas heating . It’s an older unit and the problems with it are becoming more frequent . Once the parts come in I’ll report what I found . Thanks!
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,591
    you could turn off the gas, connect the new cable to the new pilot assembly and the control and temporarily mount the pilot assembly somewhere on the boiler with a convenient screw and see if it sparks. That will rule out the control. I would then replace the installed cable because that is the most prone to damage or degradation of the insulation over time(or even the connections to the conductor to the terminals in the cable) and see it that fixes the problem.
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    So I’m in The process of trying to troubleshoot our system. 
    I have tried turning off the gas to the system and ran the new cable with the old
    controller … no spark. 

    Then I moved to the new controller fully hooked up with the new chord . I attached the chord to the new igniter but did not hook up the gas line. Still no spark..

    i am confused now as to what could be going on because if there isn’t a spark then I don’t see any reason to move ahead and actually install the new pilot ignition. 

    The other thing that my son and I did the other night to see if we could just light the boiler to get hot water was to use a long fireplace match to try to light the pilot. 
    That didn’t work either…

    what am I missing , I’m about ready to throw in the towel with this system and get a new boiler.  
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    When I use my
    volt tester to the lines coming into the controller it is showing no power to them.. is there ever a separate fuse someplace other then the wall panel for that part of the boiler? The blower fan still runs
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,177
    edited September 16
    The wiring to the control may be ascue.
    1. See if you have 24 Volts to #5 and #6 if you have the old control
    2. Depending on the new control model number, you may need to get 24 volts to #6 and #7 by using a jumper. to be clear, measure 24 v. from 5 to 6 and measure 24 v. from 5 to 7. The Opt on #7 is not optional on some of those S8600 controls3. Once you are sure that you have 24 v. to the control the spark should happen. check it with a lead wire to ground. USE INSULATED HANDLE PLIERS
    4. Once you are sure you the control is sparking, then you can connect the spark/sensor wire to the pilot assy.

    Hope this helps.

    I remember the first time I replaced an S8600. was frustrated to find there is a different wiring configuration on the Universal model compared to the Factory OEM model. That is why they put instructions in the box. But who has times for that? :#

    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,591
    note that it is 24vac, so you need to set the voltmeter to ac. if you don't have 24vac then you need to look at the power to the boiler, the transformer, and the safeties.

    does this by any chance have a vent damper on the boiler?
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    Thanks for the explanation. I have a friend coming with a volt tester tomorrow . I’ll take a look and see if that is what we will
    need to do… is the jumper line necessary or can you just move the 24v wire to position 7 instead of 6? 
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    The unit does not appear to have a vent damper. 
    The boiler has power to run the exhaust fan, would the controller be under a separate circuit.  ?
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,591
    exhaust fan? it is a power vent of some sort? some pictures of the whole boiler and vent would help here.
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 398
    edited September 16
    Hello @andrewkelly1983,
    Just so I am clear on the sequence of events and which pilot/ignition assembly you were using at the time of the different tests. Since if the old pilot/ignition assembly is compromised it may not spark and if the new pilot/ignition assembly is not 'Grounded' properly it may not spark either.

    So I’m in The process of trying to troubleshoot our system. 

    I have tried turning off the gas to the system and ran the new cable with the old
    controller … no spark.
    So the above test, just the new High Voltage wire with the old pilot/ignition assembly and old controller ?
    Then I moved to the new controller fully hooked up with the new chord . I attached the chord to the new igniter but did not hook up the gas line. Still no spark..
    You did 'Ground' the new pilot/ignition assembly as @mattmia2 instructed. If not, it probably won't spark. Just checking.
    mattmia2 said:

    temporarily mount the pilot assembly somewhere on the boiler with a convenient screw and see if it sparks.

    i am confused now as to what could be going on because if there isn’t a spark then I don’t see any reason to move ahead and actually install the new pilot ignition.

    Right now you need a 'Divide and Conquer point' which is, is there actually 24 VAC at the controller during a call for heat and / or DHW as outlined in the few previous posts above.

    If there is no 24 VAC power to the controller when there needs to be (any call for heat) you won't get spark and the gas valves will never open to supply fuel. If so you have to fix that problem first.
    I used a volt tester on the leads feeding off the Honeywell controller and none lite the volt tester
    This quote is from an earlier post of yours and has me wondering. Is this a non-contact type tester or an actual VOM, DMM or DVM (a real meter) with two probes (wires) to connect to the circuit ? You need a real meter for these 24 VAC tests. A real meter will also do continuity tests of the Roll-Out Switch (Fuse) and the Air Proving Switch when the blower (Inducer) is running.


    So moving on, you need 24VAC between terminals 5 & 6 and maybe 5 & 7 as @EdTheHeaterMan stated for any spark or gas valve operation. If the 24 VAC is missing during a heating call and / or DHW call the direction to go is toward the boiler and its associated equipment. If you have not tried a heating call, see if that works.

    Is the Roll-Out Switch (Fuse) good Green Box?

    Is the Air Proving Switch good (Red box) when the blower (Inducer) running?

    Is there 24 VAC at the Orange boxes too during a call for heat ?

    Edit: If the "exhaust fan" is running and running correctly (enough air volume and pressure). The no power to the S8600 problem is likely the Roll-Out Switch (Fuse) (Green Box) or Air Proving Switch (Red box).




    Manual (attached) if you don't have it.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 398
    I edited my last post significantly you may need to re-read the beginning of it.
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31

  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31

  • andrewkelly1983
    andrewkelly1983 Member Posts: 31
    Here are a couple of pictures. 
    I am going to re read your post and try to work through this with my friend today. 

    A couple of points so far:
    I did ground the new spark assembly by screwing it into the bracket on the main burner in the same location as the old one. 
    I did not hook up the gas line to that yet as it didn’t spark at all at this point. 

    I have not used a real volt tester only a non contact type one that you can use to see if a outlet or wire has power to it.