Kumo Cloud with ecobee Smart Thermostat

Jim100Flower

I am adding Mitsubishi mini splits to the master bedroom MSZ-GL09 and living room MSZ-GL24. Both rooms are their own zones for my forced hot water gas boiler controlled by their own ecobee smart thermostat with voice control. I want to add the Mitsubishi Kumo Cloud adapter (PAC-USWHS002-WF-2) to each head. I'd love to understand how the ecobee and Kumo Cloud will work together.

From what I read, it seems that I will run two things on my phone, the Kumo app which controls the head and IFTTT (If This Then That) which controls the ecobee. Something tells IFTTT the outdoor temperature and if it is low enough IFTTT turns on the gas heat via the ecobee and turns off the head. Did I get that right so far? Any details would be helpful.

My HVAC contractor says I also need to wire Kumo Station into my boiler. This seems unnecessary. Can Kumo Cloud control my ecobee without Kumo Station?

When this is all set up do I retain manual control with the remote control and the TSTAT?

Our local energy conservation group, Mass Save, offers substantial rebates if Kumo Cloud is installed.

Jim100Flower

I did some more research and the integration of Kumo Cloud and ecobee is easy because they are both on the network. The only required hardware is the PAC-USWHS002-WF-2 Kumo Cloud Wi-Fi Adapter.

Here is what Mass Save says:
IFTTT App connects Mitsubishi Electric Kumo Cloud with any IFTTT compatible thermostat. Current IFTTT compatible thermostats include Ecobee and Honeywell as of 11/1/19. For a list of devices, go to www.ifttt/services (Environment Control & Monitoring). Integration is capable by logging compatible thermostat and Kumo Cloud into IFTTT, then creating an applet allowing IFTTT to adjust primary and secondary heating systems, based on outdoor temperature.

Steps:
1. Create a free account on If This Then That, IFTTT.com.
2. Connect the ecobee service using your ecobee username and password.
3. Connect the Mitsubishi Electric Kumo Cloud service using your Kumo username and password.
4. Create a free Applet
- IF Ecobee: outdoor temperature is below 30F THEN Ecobee: turn on zone.
- IF Ecobee: outdoor temperature is below 30F THEN Kumo: turn off zone.

Surprisingly easy. It is all clicking and no coding.

JakeCK

What happens when the cloud goes down? Like the middle of the coldest night of the year during a blizzard? I don't think I'd want to rely on a cloud service to control when my heat switches over to aux.

This level of control over the functioning of the mechanicals in a house needs to be handled by local hardware. Not software defined schemes in the cloud, to risky. 

Jim100Flower

JakeCK the thermostat for the boiler and the remote for the mini split continue to work and override the last action of the applet.

JakeCK

So this isn't true "Something tells IFTTT the outdoor temperature and if it is low enough IFTTT turns on the gas heat via the ecobee and turns off the head."? 

It make no sense if the thermostat can override what it is being told to do by the cloud service when the cloud service is acting as the control to switch between primary and aux heat. Generally aux heat(either electric or gas) is used when it is too cold for a heat pump to effectively provide heat. If this function is some how defeated it could mean burst pipes and a damaged home. 

Maybe if, instead of turning the gas heat on and off, it is just adjusting the setpoint of the thermostat so the gas heat is never truly off it'll work, and the heat pump will be able to fail safely?

yesimon

You should have some hysteresis in your switching temperature - something like 30F mini splits off, 35F mini splits on again.

GW

Kumo station not needed when you do Kumo and Ecobee, from what I understand- that would be redundant and overlapping control strategies 

I have not done that set up yet.

We have done Ecobee and Flair Puck, And maybe 15 or so Kumo station set ups

The Kumo station is a little bit more work, a little bit more money. But it allows you to keep your existing thermostats, We just advisories turn them down a few degrees.

Jim100Flower

yesimon said:

You should have some hysteresis in your switching temperature - something like 30F mini splits off, 35F mini splits on again.

Yesimon, agree. What do you think are good switch over temperatures as the temperature falls and as it rises again?

Jim100Flower

JakeCK said:

Maybe if, instead of turning the gas heat on and off, it is just adjusting the setpoint of the thermostat so the gas heat is never truly off it'll work, and the heat pump will be able to fail safely?

JakeCK, that makes a lot of sense. Always keep the boiler setpoint at a temperature where the pipes won't freeze. I will investigate if the ecobee service has a action to set the temperature and not just actions to turn the boiler on or off.

Jim100Flower

GW said:

We have done Ecobee and Flair Puck, And maybe 15 or so Kumo station set ups

GW, What do you use for switchover temperatures?

GW

In the past it has been 40° but this year MassSave is requiring 30° for oil/natural, and 15° for LP.

Wellness

Cloud controlled thermostats dramatically increase the points of potential failure of heating or cooling capability: your modem or router could malfunction or go bad; your Internet Service Provider could have issues and, in the worst case scenario, your thermostat maker's servers could go down or the company could go out of business altogether. That's way to much risk to take IMO. If you get one of these be sure to keep your old t-stat as a backup.

Jim100Flower

GW said:

In the past it has been 40° but this year MassSave is requiring 30° for oil/natural, and 15° for LP.

GW Thanks. I have natural gas. So I would set it up that if the temp falls below 15F I turn on the boiler and if the temp goes above 15F turn off the boiler. Did Mass Save publish that number anywhere? There is a blank on the rebate form for Switchover Temp but no other guidance.

Jim100Flower

Wellness said:

Cloud controlled thermostats dramatically increase the points of potential failure of heating or cooling capability: your modem or router could malfunction or go bad; your Internet Service Provider could have issues and, in the worst case scenario, your thermostat maker's servers could go down or the company could go out of business altogether. That's way to much risk to take IMO. If you get one of these be sure to keep your old t-stat as a backup.

Good advice. I think I will be checking the TSTAT every day and night until I think I can trust the automation. As a test I am trying to send myself a text message based on ecobee outdoor temperature and so far my applet is a failure.

Jim100Flower

Here are proposed applets using actual ecobee and Mitsubishi Kumo IFTTT triggers and actions
It does not incorporate the hysteresis mentioned by yesimon because I don't know the values.

The goals are to
Switch from Mitsubishi mini split to boiler when the temperature falls to a point where the mini split is no longer efficient.
Switch back to the mini split when the temperature goes back up.
Fail gracefully so that the room never gets seriously cold - think pipes freezing.


Assume the ecobee schedule for boiler is set for comfort, say 65F
Assume Mitsubishi is set for comfort, say 65F
That way, if anything fails, the room is never cold.
Start by running Applet Master Bedroom Start/Reset.

Applet Master Bedroom Start/Reset
IF: (some always true condition)
- android SMS - send SMS “Resetting Master Bedroom.”
AND
- ecobee - Set Thermostat to Indefinite Hold - 60F

Applet Master Bedroom Falling Temperature
IF: ecobee outdoor temperature falls below 15
- android SMS - send SMS “Switching from Mitsubishi to boiler.”
AND
- ecobee - Resume Thermostat Program
AND
- mitsubishi - Lower Temperature 5F

Applet Master Bedroom Rising Temperature
IF: ecobee - outdoor temperature rises above 15F
- android SMS - send SMS “Switching from boiler to Mitsubishi.”
AND
- ecobee - Set Thermostat to Indefinite Hold - 60F
AND
- mitsubishi - Raise Temperature 5F


What do you think?

Jamie Hall

I think a pair of T87s, one for the boiler and one for the heat pump... might need a relay to actually turn the heat pump off...

GW

Jim are you in Mass? Natural gas is 30 degrees. Of course it can be lower. But they don't want it higher

Propane is 15 degrees

it’s published in our technician- installing contractor communications- not sure if it’s public or not  

Jim100Flower

GW said:

Jim are you in Mass? Natural gas is 30 degrees. Of course it can be lower. But they don't want it higher

Propane is 15 degrees

it’s published in our technician- installing contractor communications- not sure if it’s public or not  

Hi GW, yes I am a homeowner in Lynn MA with some software background but no HVAC background. Thank you for this information.

So, if ODT falls below 30F, switch from heat pump to boiler.
When the ODT rises again, is 30F the SwitchOver point?
User yesimon suggested having hysteresis and so I think maybe SwitchOver will be higher than 30F.

Thanks!

JakeCK

N/m I'm over thinking it. Carry on.

GW

Jim I don’t know the “swing” with the two different platforms talking to each other. I know when I set up Kumo stations there’s a 5 degree “either system may run” swing- it’s not adjustable. You know more than me on the software side 

Integration isn't a perfect science 

GW

Jim are there any YouTube’s on setting up IFTTT? I gave only done kumo station and Ecobee with Flair 

thanks

Jim100Flower

GW said:

Jim are there any YouTube’s on setting up IFTTT? I gave only done kumo station and Ecobee with Flair 

thanks

YouTube was not a big help, but IFTTT is very simple. You can create the integration applets with a few clicks and no coding. The hard part for me was to decide which of the limited triggers and actions I could use.
Basically, I will
- set both the ecobee program and the Mitsubishi to 65F
- put the ecobee (boiler) on indefinite hold at 60F
- when the ODT drops, release the hold so the ecobee goes up to 65, AND lower the temperature on the Mitsubishi by 5F so that it will turn off.

When you do ecobee with flair, what ODT do you use to switch from from the heatpump to the main heat (30F)? What ODT do you use to switch back, if not the same?

Jamie Hall

I hate to be a pain, but what happens when the internet goes paws up?

Jim100Flower

Jamie Hall said:

I hate to be a pain, but what happens when the internet goes paws up?

I appreciate your question because I want to discover all the holes in my proposal. Please tell me the trouble I will get into when the internet goes down. I think my proposal fails gracefully.

Without integrated controls I have manual control. I will have a boiler controlled by ecobee and a heat pump controlled by a hand held remote control. When it gets cold outside I have to remember to manually switch over to the boiler.

If the internet goes out, I still have manual control.

If the internet goes out on a night of falling temperatures and I don't know it is out, then I will be expecting an automatic switchover and that won't happen. In my proposal (August 6, above) the ecobee is never set lower than 60F and so my pipes won't freeze.

If the internet goes out on a night with rising temperatures and I don't know it is out, then I will be expecting a switchover to the heat pump that won't happen. In this case the ecobee controls the boiler with a set point of 65F. It is inefficient, but I have heat.

Jamie Hall

Sounds like you have a good plan B.

GW

Jim my service guy is a little bit smarter than me with Ecobee/Flir integration. I have not personally set it up. I’ll get my hands on it soon and try to report back

yesimon

For MA natural gas, switching around 40F is best for maximizing money, while switching around 30F is still reasonable for reducing emissions/climate impact without increasing electricity costs too much from reduced efficiency. You can set a 4-5 degree delta around these points.

I don't know about Mass Save rebate program requirements but ultimately you have control over your thermostat programming.

John22

Jim, have you added the systems and had success with testing and IFTTT scenarios yet? I’m in exactly the same boat except I still need the Kumo cloud adapters (which are proving difficult to find!)

Jim100Flower

John22 said:

Jim, have you added the systems and had success with testing and IFTTT scenarios yet? I’m in exactly the same boat except I still need the Kumo cloud adapters (which are proving difficult to find!)

Hi John, thanks for your message. Let's both post our progress here.

My contractor is having trouble locating the 3 ton outside unit and the Kumo cloud adaptor. I'll let you know if he finds a source.

TAG

GW said:

Jim are you in Mass? Natural gas is 30 degrees. Of course it can be lower. But they don't want it higher

Propane is 15 degrees

it’s published in our technician- installing contractor communications- not sure if it’s public or not  

Propane has become expensive ... not sure my systems would pay at 15 degrees at .20KW. Has MA done studies or is it like NJ where they just want you to use HP's regardless of cost.

Jim100Flower

My mini splits were installed this week with Kumo Cloud adapters. I think everything is working.

Although my dual band router broadcasts at 2.4 GHz and handles other 2.4 GHz-only devices, I had to create a new WiFi network that was 2.4 GHz ONLY.

I have two applets in IFTTT.com. They turn the mini splits on or off and set the ecobee (boiler) comfort profiles to HOME or AWAY.

1. HEAT. If outside temperature rises above 30°F, then turn on mini splits and set ecobee comfort profile to Away.

2. HEAT. If outside temperature falls below 30°F, then turn off mini splits and resume ecobee schedule.

Here is my applet.

GW

The ifttt app seems very disjointed, is it just me?