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I'm not saying.......I'm just saying......

ChrisJ
ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890



1929.....
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
JakeCK

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,467
    Chortle. However, I must say that I would not choose methyl formate as a refrigerant. Granted, it's not a greenhouse gas, nor does it attack ozone. But... It's explosive, extremely flammable, and highly toxic (both liquid and gas phase) by all routes.

    However the patent does sort of show that there's nothing new under the sun...

    How do you dig these things up, anyway?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    PC7060
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    edited July 2022

    Chortle. However, I must say that I would not choose methyl formate as a refrigerant. Granted, it's not a greenhouse gas, nor does it attack ozone. But... It's explosive, extremely flammable, and highly toxic (both liquid and gas phase) by all routes.

    However the patent does sort of show that there's nothing new under the sun...

    How do you dig these things up, anyway?


    My refrigerators use methyl formate and that patent is listed on them.
    I have absolutely no problem using it as a refrigerant.


    One of the interesting things about methyl formate is both the low side and highside are often in a vacuum. I think under heavy load I've seen the highside up to a whole 10 PSI.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 398
    @ChrisJ
    You have the GE monitor top fridge?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    GGross said:

    @ChrisJ
    You have the GE monitor top fridge?

    Yes.
    Several actually.

    I run the Monitor Top forum as well.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 398
    @ChrisJ
    That's cool, I ended up over there by accident one time when I was looking at different refrigerants we have used over the years. It seemed to be a big topic of conversation there.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    GGross said:

    @ChrisJ
    That's cool, I ended up over there by accident one time when I was looking at different refrigerants we have used over the years. It seemed to be a big topic of conversation there.

    Yeah, there's a decent amount of knowledge there.
    Especially with unconventional refrigerants. We have quite a few guys that work with methyl formate, sulfur dioxide and Propane as well.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Is there an Edsel in your garage? Cool!
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890

    Is there an Edsel in your garage? Cool!



    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,797
    No refrigerant necessary and still runs like a Top. 
    Steve Minnich
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,190
    Freon113 would make a great cleaner especially for the ink residue.
    PC7060EdTheHeaterMan
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,130
    A patent for a heat pump for heating a house in 1929... 

    I thought about getting a monitor top fridge at one time.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    JakeCK said:
    A patent for a heat pump for heating a house in 1929... 

    I thought about getting a monitor top fridge at one time.
    No it's a patent on using methyl formate as a refrigerant.  But it mentions a heat pump as and example of uses for the refrigerant 
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,130
    ChrisJ said:
    JakeCK said:
    A patent for a heat pump for heating a house in 1929... 

    I thought about getting a monitor top fridge at one time.
    No it's a patent on using methyl formate as a refrigerant.  But it mentions a heat pump as and example of uses for the refrigerant 
    I stand corrected. Still cool that there were people thinking of these ideas a hundred years ago. I wonder where we would be had they been pursued.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,542
    edited July 2022
    What is interesting is what I believe to be fantastic wire to cooler efficiency COP of the Monitor Top. 

    Have you done a cubic foot- cubic foot cost of operation for a MT compared to a modern fridge? 
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    edited July 2022
    What is interesting is what I believe to be fantastic wire to cooler efficiency COP of the Monitor Top. 

    Have you done a cubic foot- cubic foot cost of operation for a MT compared to a modern fridge? 
    I haven't dug very deep but a typical 1935 monitor top with a 6-8 cuft cabinet runs about 20kwh per month.  My boss just bought a small 7.1cuft fridge that is manual defrost and I think it's rated 30kwh per month.

    My 1933 7cuft does about 30kwh but some of that is from the 10watt crank case heater that was eliminated in 1935.

    We have a 1935 ball top here as well that's only 4cuft and it appears to use very little, so little I haven't bothered measuring it.   It still has an 1/8hp compressor, same as the 1935 monitor top but a smaller evaporator and condenser and less insulation.  I've got a feeling it uses less than 10kwh per month.

    I don't think the efficiency of refrigerators has changed at all really as far as the system goes.  The defrost heaters are pigs and for a long time they were using very thin insulation but they've beefed that back up on better refrigerators.

    A typical monitor top has 3" thick insulation though it is corrugated cardboard it's R value is basically the same as 3" thick fiberglass.  So it's obviously going to outperform something with 1/2" or 1" thick insulation.

    There's also no fans at all and no finned condenser to get dirty buried underneath on the floor.

    To me, a 1935 CK Monitor Top is a perfect example of what can be built and mass produced if a company tries to make a good product.   They were built when electric was extremely expensive and people still didn't entirely trust electric refrigeratoration so reliability and efficiency were top priorities. 




    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,130
    That reminds me I need to clean the coils on my fridge. A royal pita. I can't even reach all of it with the vacuum attachments.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    JakeCK said:

    That reminds me I need to clean the coils on my fridge. A royal pita. I can't even reach all of it with the vacuum attachments.


    We have a 2011 Kitchenaid that was made by Whirlpool and the condenser is a zigzag nightmare that you literally cannot clean most of unless you tip the refrigerator back. The plans are for it to be replaced by a 1940s-50s GE since that's what the wife wants. Sometime when I have the time to restore one for her..... hopefully before the POS dies.

    I'd really like for her to have a larger Monitor Top, but it's not her favorite and since we have the room I figure she should be happy. We currently have 3 refrigerators, so there's no reason for her not to have exactly what she wants. As long as it's not a modern Samsung or LG.........
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,130
    My wife would never go for GE monitor top. She likes shiney new things. 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    edited July 2022
    JakeCK said:

    My wife would never go for GE monitor top. She likes shiney new things. 

    Time for a new wife............

    My main monitor top is shiny.
    I spent years restoring it.

    I'm about to completely strip and paint a 1935 CK Monitor Top unit and rewire it as well. I would never use an unrestored refrigerator. I also sandblasted and had the racks nickel plated.


    The basement is my parent's basement, mine is all field stone.
















    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Solid_Fuel_ManJakeCKEdTheHeaterMan
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,542
    I love the Americana era of appliances. Chrome and curves! 

    This is at the family camp, and still works. 

    My internet searching says it is around 1948
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    @Solid_Fuel_Man

    Still trying to figure out what exactly "deg-mo" is.
    This is snipped from an article written by William Holladay.





    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,130
    Oooohhh purdy. How much for one of those? I'd put it in my future basement mancave right next to my computer desk.
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460
    ChrisJ said:

    ...Still trying to figure out what exactly "deg-mo" is...

    My guess: the specified 20.3 kWh per month is based on some baseline room ambient. That energy consumption per month goes up or down by 0.637 kWh for every degree room ambient is above or below the baseline.
    Solid_Fuel_ManChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    JakeCK said:

    Oooohhh purdy. How much for one of those? I'd put it in my future basement mancave right next to my computer desk.


    I have no idea what guys charge for one restored.
    I think there's a place down south that restores them and last I heard it was something like 3 large.
    I'd expect to get a decent single door Monitor Top for around $300-500 and then invest the time into replacing the wiring (NOT OPTIONAL) and then stripping and painting it, making minor repairs etc.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,190
    What is the tin can thing at the back right of the monitor tops?

    My parents had a separate freezer version of the 50's GE that they got from my grandparents until the late 80's when my mom got tired of having to defrost it. My grandma on the other side had one in her basement without a separate freezer that I think my cousin still has in his basement.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    mattmia2 said:

    What is the tin can thing at the back right of the monitor tops?

    My parents had a separate freezer version of the 50's GE that they got from my grandparents until the late 80's when my mom got tired of having to defrost it. My grandma on the other side had one in her basement without a separate freezer that I think my cousin still has in his basement.

    That's the float chamber. Monitor Tops use a float valve as the expansion valve.
    On newer ones they're hidden below the condenser at the back.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    mattmia2
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,970
    My Father-in-law has one of those in his basement filled with 2 cases of Piels real draft, 12 ounce bottles.  
    Edward Young Retired HVAC Contractor & HYDRONICIAN Services first oil burner at age 16 P/T trainer for EH-CC.org