Roth oil tank or old school steel

MaxMercy

My 275 gallon steel tank has started to develop bubbles at the bottom, so while the weather is warmer and the tank is at 1/8, it's time to change it. I've noticed the Roth tanks becoming more popular - but they're about 50% more in cost. The original steel lasted 30 years, and I'll be gone (literally) before the next 30 years elapses. Any advantage to spending more for the Roth tank now? Is a double wall like the Roth going to be a code requirement at some point for selling the house?

The tank is inside the basement.

Thanks.

SlamDunk

Some future owner will thank you for spending a little extra today if it isn't code. I mean, wouldn't you be appreciative if your existing tank was double walled today?

STEVEusaPA

Roth/Granby double walls are the same. But neither is 50% more than a single wall steel tank, and are cheaper than a double wall steel tank, if you can even find one.
My wholesale price for a double wall Roth over a double bottom steel is $300 less for the Roth.

MaxMercy

SlamDunk said:

Some future owner will thank you for spending a little extra today if it isn't code. I mean, wouldn't you be appreciative if your existing tank was double walled today?

I don't care about no stinkin' future owners!! When I built the house in 1993, I don't think double walls were even an option...

In any case, I'm inclined to go for a double wall tank at this point. Some supplemental reading suggests that the typical steel tank like I have can start to fail in 15 years or less. Is this true? If so, then the double wall tank would seem to be the way to go for sure.

Thanks.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@MaxMercy

Single wall tanks will usually last 20 years easily and in most cases will go 40 years

MaxMercy

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@MaxMercy

Single wall tanks will usually last 20 years easily and in most cases will go 40 years

Mine made it to almost 30. To be honest, a local oil company insisted on a visual inspection of the tank (which I thought was BS at that time since it didn't appear to be leaking) before delivering oil otherwise I wouldn't have even been aware of it - there's no puddle anywhere. I don't know how long it's had these tiny bubbles.

MaxMercy

STEVEusaPA said:

Roth/Granby double walls are the same. But neither is 50% more than a single wall steel tank, and are cheaper than a double wall steel tank, if you can even find one.
My wholesale price for a double wall Roth over a double bottom steel is $300 less for the Roth.

I wasn't even aware there was a double bottom steel. I was pricing a single wall steel against the double wall Roth, so that would explain the larger difference.

Thanks.

STEVEusaPA

MaxMercy said:

I wasn't even aware there was a double bottom steel. I was pricing a single wall steel against the double wall Roth, so that would explain the larger difference.

Thanks.

Single walls are $9 cheaper.

MaxMercy said:

...To be honest, a local oil company insisted on a visual inspection of the tank (which I thought was BS at that time since it didn't appear to be leaking) before delivering oil...

This is pretty standard for legitimate oil companies as it is usually required by their insurance company to do an initial inspection to make sure the tank is piped properly and there are no obvious leaks or deficiencies.
There's a long story as to why but the short version is a customer had a house that basically needed to get knocked down and was worthless. So 'somehow' the oil line to the burner was disconnected on an empty tank. The oil company filled it, it obviously spilled, and the insurance company had to buy the house, paying the owner much more than they would ever get for it by selling it.

In Canada, insurance companies require you replace your oil tank after (I think) 15 years, or they won't cover it or any damage through their homeowner's insurance.

EdTheHeaterMan

Check with your insurance company Max, See if they are inclined to weigh in. What if you go with a new steel tank with a 10 year warranty and next year you find your insurer requires something else, you dont want to put in another oil tank. Get their decision in writing. Sometimes I mail a letter confirming what was said, then end the letter with the phrase "If I do not hear from you to the contrary within 60 days, I will proceed based upon the information enclosed herein". This acts as written proof of your discussion with the insurer. Send the letter registered with return receipt. This way you have proof you sent the letter.

Next year when you get a notice about oil tank changes, you will have a document that may provide relief from an expensive redo.

Just the rambling thoughts of a old man

Mr.Ed

I purchased the majority of my replacement tanks for customers from RE Michel. (Contractor only) and here is the tanks I offered.

https://www.granbyindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/granby-brochure-tanks-us-range-4pages-lr-1.pdf

The wholesale cost of those tanks today are almost the Retail price installed, from my 2001 price book. Just over 20 years ago.

SlamDunk

MaxMercy said:

SlamDunk said:

Some future owner will thank you for spending a little extra today if it isn't code. I mean, wouldn't you be appreciative if your existing tank was double walled today?

I don't care about no stinkin' future owners!! When I built the house in 1993, I don't think double walls were even an option...

In any case, I'm inclined to go for a double wall tank at this point. Some supplemental reading suggests that the typical steel tank like I have can start to fail in 15 years or less. Is this true? If so, then the double wall tank would seem to be the way to go for sure.

Thanks.

That future owner may be you in the future!

EBEBRATT-Ed

@EdTheHeaterMan

Do you remember wat 275s were going for when you started in the business? I remember $75 at the supply house.

All the tanks back then had end outlets. Being in MA. at that time the tank had to have a tag on it that said "MA Approved Oil Tank" CT tanks got a "UL" label. At that time the company I worked for had an office in MA & CT, Hartford & Springfield.

There was a guy on Cherry St in East Hartford that made 275-gallon tanks and sold them to the supply houses in CT & MA. Can't remember the name.

But you could buy from him direct for $50/tank

After the oil embargo a lot of people that had 1 275 wanted to add a second tank.

So I called this guy up and said I wanted to pick up 4 tanks the next morning. He said they would be ready.

When I got over there he said " I forgot to ask you what office you were calling from. do you want MA or CT tags"

So he whipped out his welder and tacked the MA tags on them.

Ah, the good old days

DanHolohan

We have a Roth tank, installed outside. I sleep soundly.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@DanHolohan

Do they allow a tank outside above ground as they are or do you have to enclose it or put a shed roof over it??

DanHolohan

This is how it is, Ed.

HVACNUT

My house was built in 1972 and in 2018 we decided to finish our partial basement and remove the 275 steel tank. I installed a 275 Roth outside with 3/8 I.D. copper to a Tiger Loop Ultra at the burner. I didn't sleeve soft tubing through hard pipe as a pick up tube from of the tank, I'm just using the hard pipe. The top side of the bushing has a flare adapter with a flare union to a ball valve. The pick up pipe is 2" from the bottom and if water or sludge ever gets that high I can easily disconnect and cut off an inch. I do add tank treatment with every delivery.
I have nothing against Granby BTW, that was just my choice. 
And did we ever finish the basement? No, no we didn't. I hate it when money saved for wants has to go to needs.

kenjohnson

One of the things I appreciate about my Roth tank versus the old steel tank is that I can fill the Roth to a full 275 gallons of oil but the steel tank would never hold more than 200 gallons before the whistle would tell the supplier to stop filling it. I like to buy my oil when the price is low and I want to fill the tank up as much as I can.

STEVEusaPA

kenjohnson said:

One of the things I appreciate about my Roth tank versus the old steel tank is that I can fill the Roth to a full 275 gallons of oil but the steel tank would never hold more than 200 gallons before the whistle would tell the supplier to stop filling it. I like to buy my oil when the price is low and I want to fill the tank up as much as I can.

That has never happened for me in over 30 years in the oil business. You shouldn't fill any tank completely full (by code) because you must allow room for expansion. Any empty 275 I ever filled got 256-268 gallons in it. If you're only getting 200 it's because the driver is blasting it at high speed/pressure causing foaming that's hitting the whistle. They should stop, wait about 20 seconds and continue filling slow enough to hear the whistle to top it off until the whistle stops.

ChrisJ

STEVEusaPA said:

kenjohnson said:

One of the things I appreciate about my Roth tank versus the old steel tank is that I can fill the Roth to a full 275 gallons of oil but the steel tank would never hold more than 200 gallons before the whistle would tell the supplier to stop filling it. I like to buy my oil when the price is low and I want to fill the tank up as much as I can.

That has never happened for me in over 30 years in the oil business. You shouldn't fill any tank completely full (by code) because you must allow room for expansion. Any empty 275 I ever filled got 256-268 gallons in it. If you're only getting 200 it's because the driver is blasting it at high speed/pressure causing foaming that's hitting the whistle. They should stop, wait about 20 seconds and continue filling slow enough to hear the whistle to top it off until the whistle stops.

I figured they already had 50 gallons in the tank.

EdTheHeaterMan

kenjohnson said:

One of the things I appreciate about my Roth tank versus the old steel tank is that I can fill the Roth to a full 275 gallons of oil but the steel tank would never hold more than 200 gallons before the whistle would tell the supplier to stop filling it. I like to buy my oil when the price is low and I want to fill the tank up as much as I can.

Your whistle stem is too long. The ideal automatic delivery target at F.P. Young company was 156 gallons. that way if there was less fuel used, at least there would be a 100 gallon or more drop. When you deliver 50 or 60 gallons there was not in the margin to pay the minimum cost of operating a truck (Per Stop). If th customer used more than the target, there was very little chance of running out. If the driver delivered over 200 gallons, the K-Factor would be adjusted (automatically by the computer program) so there would be less chance of a customer running out of oil.

That said, We had it down to a science. The actual amount a fuel oil tank would hold from running out of oil... to full tank was 243 gallons. A new installed empty tank would take 256 gallons. (back then the bottom feed was on the side of the tank leaving about 12 gallons unusable).

If you want to maximize your deliveries, You must closely monitor the fuel below 1/4 tank on your gauge. Most tank gauges are not very accurate. You must also allow for fuel expansion if the fuel is delivered from a very cold truck, and delivered to a basement tank in a heated basement. Roth tanks use the same rules for oil deliveries. The only thing I can say about your difference between the Roth and the Steel "obround" tank is the whistle stem on the vent alarm may be cut to customize your tank for the different applications.

leonz

MaxMercy said:

My 275 gallon steel tank has started to develop bubbles at the bottom, so while the weather is warmer and the tank is at 1/8, it's time to change it. I've noticed the Roth tanks becoming more popular - but they're about 50% more in cost. The original steel lasted 30 years, and I'll be gone (literally) before the next 30 years elapses. Any advantage to spending more for the Roth tank now? Is a double wall like the Roth going to be a code requirement at some point for selling the house?

The tank is inside the basement.

Thanks.

=================================================================

An option you should consider is a dual tank in a tank system that you can install outside on a concrete slab. In that way you can eliminate the tank on the basement and use a 2 pipe fuel delivery system with a return pipe to the tank.

The Highland Tank information I have attached is something I thought you may wish to examine as it is an exterior grade tank with extra safety features.

MaxMercy

An option you should consider is a dual tank in a tank system that you can install outside on a concrete slab. In that way you can eliminate the tank on the basement and use a 2 pipe fuel delivery system with a return pipe to the tank.

I don't get why would anyone prefer an outdoor tank over an indoor one? I have a 1300sq basement and the tank takes no room at all, plus I don't need to worry about sub zero temps or even combustion changes depending on the changing temperature of the oil.

leonz

MaxMercy said:

An option you should consider is a dual tank in a tank system that you can install outside on a concrete slab. In that way you can eliminate the tank on the basement and use a 2 pipe fuel delivery system with a return pipe to the tank.

I don't get why would anyone prefer an outdoor tank over an indoor one? I have a 1300sq basement and the tank takes no room at all, plus I don't need to worry about sub zero temps or even combustion changes depending on the changing temperature of the oil.



=================================================================

A fuel conditioner like HEET or 911 works well you just have to treat the oil as it is delivered.

Heating oil tanks and residual sludge from heating oils are a fact of heating with kerosene and heavier fuel oil.

There are folks that have a business of filtering heating oil annually to remove sludge residue and water and also treat the oil with HEET and or 911 as well when they are done cleaning the oil in the tank.
It increases the useful life of the tank in the scheme of things.

1. fire risk, damage to personal and municipal property including storm sewers and sanitary sewers.
A good example of this is exploding manholes in storm and sanitary sewers and the damage caused by
cast iron manhole covers upon impact.
2. oil pollution clean up costs to the ground surface requiring massive amounts of oil containment with waste dirt, oil booms, oil absorbent tubes and absorbent sheets, baled straw and silt curtains for blocking and containing oil flow and run off from snow melt and seasonal rain, disposal of the baled straw waste as well as vacuuming the spilled oil that is visible.
3. increased clean up costs in the event of a fire which involves digging up the foundation and then excavating the dirt under it and disposal of the dirt at an approved landfill
4. greater personal liability to previous homeowner in the event of a fuel spill/tank leakage that was not evident at the outset.
5. lawsuits from neighbors/municipalities if the pollution from a spill or leak is widespread and contaminates an underground water supply, stream, creek bed with seasonal water flows.

I stopped using oil for home heating 7 years ago and use a coal stoker boiler and my 23 year old tank is outside and nearly empty and has been since then.

Having an approved oil collection pan under the tank equal to the oil tank volume will only help you in the event of a leak/rust damage and tank corrosion.

MaxMercy

Seems like a ridiculous amount of effort for that once in a thousand lifetimes chance that I would have a fire that would compromise the oil tank, or do oil tanks spontaneously rupture and dump a lot of oil with no warning?

Everything I've read seems to indicate that these tanks fail slowly with a drip here and there as mine is beginning to do. For all I know, it's been doing this for a year or more.

Labenaqui

Just an observation on new "conventional" tanks. The bottom tap and Firematic Valve configuration seem to reduce "bottom rot" issues by moving water & condensate out vs the older end tap units.
This has been particularly helpful with external tanks on mobile homes in the North Country. We use F25 Filters and accumulate water/condensate externally for service ease. A lot easier to thaw out a filter can than oil tanks and 3/8" copper lines snaking everywhere .....

STEVEusaPA

ron said:

...question about double wall tanks, assuming a steel tank I guess. Is that basically a traditional steel 275 [vertical] oil tank but simply with double steel walls? Upon initial thought the sound of double wall sounds better, but when the inner steel wall does develop a leak over time then the oil would be contained by that second outer wall so ok good. Is there some type of indicator when that happens? Otherwise how would one ever know until the outer wall eventually leaks? Asking because I am not familiar with double wall tanks whether it's steel or plastic, roth?, and kinda don't see the point in them versus a properly maintained single wall steel tank that is properly placed.

Some steel tanks are true double walled. Most used for residential just have a double bottom and it goes up the side a little bit. They leave a space for 'leaking'. That space has a separate gauge that would indicate a leak.
The Roth & Granby double walls have a steel outer 'tank' for containment and a plastic inner tank to hold product. They also have a space between the tanks, with a gauge that would indicate a leak.

@Labenaqui I agree in principal, bottom feed tanks, properly pitched are always better for removing sludge/water. And if it's always gravity, even better.
In the OP's case, he's putting it in his basement. In America, we don't do tank cleaning or mandatory replacement like the rest of world, so a top feed tank should be treated.

leonz

This highland tank is an excellent example of a double wall tank with a 2" monitor pipe.
I wish I knew how to make the PDF file open up and place the image here but I do not.
I suppose that may be because I do not have an Adobe license.

CLamb

leonz said:

I wish I knew how to make the PDF file open up and place the image here but I do not.
I suppose that may be because I do not have an Adobe license.

OpenOffice Draw https://www.openoffice.org/ can be used to do that. It is free and open source.