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Hydronic heating zone loop HELP

addumb
addumb Member Posts: 3
in Radiant Heating


Hi all!

I've got a few questions about a new zone I've been messing around with in a space on our second floor. The little background: the house was built in 1918, the space we're working on was never finished off, meaning, open walls, no insulation, no heating source, one outlet and two lights :)

The boiler was installed in 2015 -HTP direct vent and during that install two zones were created. One for the basement (which is now finished) and one for the main level. We added a third zone with a Taco 0015e circulator pump with a direct supply run to this room. The question(s) are really in the attached drawings. Is there any concerns for piping done this way? I should say this: there are some big concerns about bring piping up through the floor in this this room so what we're doing is using a run that was going up to this room where an expansion tank was (sort of a head scratcher for us but maybe that was done way back in the day). So the run goes up into the second floor ceiling. We have a Runtal baseboard on one side of the room and the other side will have a floor to wall bookshelf built in and the thought here is to use two kick space radiator units (Beacon Morris K120).

I put up two drawings: A and B. First is a loop from one side to the other and the second is a split supply / return. All of the walls and ceiling are wide open so if there is any insight and suggestions please don't hold back! Can the kick space radiators be looped this way?
I did spent a bit of time reading through a bunch of threads and feel like this is about right but thought before we get too far I might want to draw this out and ask!

Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,952
    I'd do b and put balancing valves of some sort on each branch. The kickspace heaters and the panel radiator will heat very differently. You may ultimately have to control the separately one way or another. I might have done something like raise the bookshelves up 8" or so and put 2 tube Runtal in the kickspace or something like that.
    addumb
  • addumb
    addumb Member Posts: 3
    Thanks Matt!
    Where would you add the balancing valves in the B - diagram? Just on the supply side of the kickspace heaters?
    And the bookshelf will have a rise to it so it can hide these kickspace heaters (upto 24" in height).

    I would consider the runtal but was not able to get enough BTU's for the space by use just those. Hence the thought of going with two kickspace heaters.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,611
    I would consider piping it reverse/return. When you pipe in series, you need to consider the temperature drop and lower output of the next radiator in line.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,386
    edited April 2022
    This might help.

    http://media.blueridgecompany.com/documents/ZoningMadeEasy.pdf

    You want to start at page 4 & 5 to understand the basics of selecting the proper circulator, pipe size and pipe design. Then go to the bottom left of page 8. This will help you select the proper pump. The 0015e might bo overkill. 007 (or 007e if you must have ECM) should be sufficient. You will want to know about flow valves. Start at the top right of page 9 for that. Some pumps have flow-check valves right in the pump, like the Taco 007 IFC.

    If you completely understand those items I have mentioned, you should be able to answer the questions in the accompanying workbook if you can answer the query on page 6, this will help you understand and therefore choose the best piping design.
    http://documentlibrary.xylemappliedwater.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/22/files/2012/12/FH-Z300_BG-Zoning-Workbook.pdf.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    addumb
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,466
    How big are those kickspace heaters, btu wise? Typically 1/2" pipe can only handle about 15,000 btu's on it, so you would have to add up the entire load first, including the baseboard.
    Rick
    mattmia2addumb
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,952
    What size are the risers for the old open expansion tank?
    addumb
  • addumb
    addumb Member Posts: 3
    rick in Alaska said:

    How big are those kickspace heaters, btu wise? Typically 1/2" pipe can only handle about 15,000 btu's on it, so you would have to add up the entire load first, including the baseboard.
    Rick

    Kick space heaters are 8425-12990 BTU's + the Runtal at 6160. So based on that we'd need at least 3/4" copper (not the 1/2" like in the drawing).
    mattmia2 said:

    What size are the risers for the old open expansion tank?

    1" black pipe is coming up from the basement (the old expansion tank lines). We will have 1" copper coming from the boiler to this 1" black pipe riser (which is already going up to the second floor) creating a third zone with a dedicated circulator to this set of radiators in the drawing.

    So based on the PDF I was reading from EdTheHeaterMan we would need to run 3/4" copper with a pipe layout from option B in the drawings BUT that would mean the flow rate would be too high for the kickspace heater side. So we'd need to add balancing valve like this: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-132552A-3-4-NPT-QuickSetter-Balancing-Valve-w-Flow-Meter
    to the supply side of the kickspace heater correct? As it calls for a 1-3 gal per minute flow rate.

    Anything else I should be asking about? missing?

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