What is “No. 20 oil” ?

mknmike

Is it the same as SAE 20? I guess I better not as my synthetic 5w20 for my Honda.  Right?

Pics of other pumps in the three zone setup here.  Thanks for the help there!  

:-)

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/187788/banging-boiler-shuts-off-after-pump/p1?new=1

bburd

SAE 20 motor oil. Multi grade oils were developed after that circulator was manufactured. You should be able to find something suitable at a hardware store.

ayetchvacker

Buy the little zoom spout bottle at your local supply house!

Jamie Hall

5W -- 20 will work, if that's what you have. What those numbers mean is that it behaves like 5 viscosity when it's cold and 20 when it's hot.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Some people use sewing machine oil. Others use the oil sold by the pump manufacturer.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bell-Gossett-L25201-Oil-Tube-2-5-oz

Intplm.

I remember when folks used 3 in 1 oil. The B&G oil is what the manufacturer suggests but the #20 is fine.

mattmia2

3 in 1 motor oil i believe is sae 20. it is sold for air compressors as well. both of those are nondetergent. It probably doesn't matter in that application.

mknmike

Thank you all.  I think I should get some oil in the one pump that has no caps on it and feels warmer than the others.  I think I have some 3 in 1 and definitely a little leftover from my Honda 5w20 hopefully some non-synthetic.  I realize non-detergent is ideal.  So maybe I will start with the 3 in 1 (assuming I can find it).  Maybe tomorrow I will head to the supply house or at least autozone.  

mattmia2

3 in one motor oil is different than 3 in one household oil. i have some motor oil in an extended spout bottle ordered that has been backordered from suplyhouse.com for about 2 months now.

mknmike

Doesn’t look like I have the right stuff, and my can of 3 in 1 is basically empty.  This is everything I considered using, but have decided to just wait until tomorrow.

mknmike

Jamie Hall said:

5W -- 20 will work, if that's what you have. What those numbers mean is that it behaves like 5 viscosity when it's cold and 20 when it's hot.

I wonder if this synthetic stuff I have is ok.  I’m going to shower up and go over there and either add the synthetic stuff or just wait until tomorrow.  The heater has been used all winter with no oil in any of the pumps.  The previous owner hadn’t lived in the house for three years before that.  He MIGHT have had the units serviced, but I see no sign of that.  

The thing that worries me is…

I just dropped the boiler setpoint to 140 F and see that now the second and third floor pump is running pretty continuously now.  That’s good for efficiency, but maybe hard on the pump.  

So I’m either going to drop the thermostat for that hot pump down low until I get oil for it, or add the Synthetic stuff tonight.

I will shower and see if anyone thinks it’s ok to add the synthetic 5w20.

EdTheHeaterMan

#20 oil ... could it be 10 of the #2 oil deliveries I got last year ?

But seriously, Any 20 weight motor oil will do just fine. 3 in 1. Tele-spout, Zoom... anyone available at the hardware store. You can also use 10W-40 in a pinch. Just want to keep the bearings wet.

BE Careful on the oil cups on the motor. Only a drop or 2 a year or you could overflow the oil cup. When that happens, the oil will get absorbed in the rubber motor mount on the end of the motor housing. Over a few years of over-oiling, the mount will become soft on the bottom and the motor will settle about 1/16" lower on the cradle. This will cause the pump shaft and the motor shaft to be out of alignment. Once that happens you will find the circulator coupling will fail in short order. That is because the springs on the coupling needs to act as a universal joint to make up for the mis-alignment. Since those springs are so thin, they wear thru quickly.

So if you have trouble with circulator coupling failure on that B&G circulator pump, order a set of motor mounts and change them out with the next coupling... and keep the oil to a minimum on the motor bearings.

The bearing assembly however, you can dump a couple of tbs. in that opening, You can't over-oil that bearing. (the one on the pump portion) ...well you can over-oil it, but it won't hurt anything except the oil stain on the floor under the pump

Mr Ed

mknmike

EdTheHeaterMan said: in

#20 oil ... could it be 10 of the #2 oil deliveries I got last year ? But seriously, Any 20 weight motor oil will do just fine. 3 in 1. Tele-spout, Zoom... anyone available at the hardware store. You can also use 10W-40 in a pinch. Just want to keep the bearings wet. BE Careful on the oil cups on the motor. Only a drop or 2 a year or you could overflow the oil cup. When that happens, the oil will get absorbed in the rubber motor mount on the end of the motor housing. Over a few years of over-oiling, the mount will become soft on the bottom and the motor will settle about 1/16" lower on the cradle. This will cause the pump shaft and the motor shaft to be out of alignment. Once that happens you will find the circulator coupling will fail in short order. That is because the springs on the coupling needs to act as a universal joint to make up for the mis-alignment. Since those springs are so thin, they wear thru quickly. So if you have trouble with circulator coupling failure on that B&G circulator pump, order a set of motor mounts and change them out with the next coupling... and keep the oil to a minimum on the motor bearings. The bearing assembly however, you can dump a couple of tbs. in that opening, You can't over-oil that bearing. (the one on the pump portion) ...well you can over-oil it, but it won't hurt anything except the oil stain on the floor under the pump Mr Ed

Thank you for this tip.  My daughter is hogging the shower right now, so I haven’t gotten over there yet.  It sounds like that synthetic 5w20 will be ok then.  

I see that the diagram of the pump shows the two “motor bearings” and a “pump bearing”.  I am feeling the motor side being hot on that one pump, and concerned about that one I guess on the “motor bearing” sides.  

I will try to look and see where the mounts are and see if I can order some.  I imagine a few days of 5w20 synthetic won’t deteriorate the rubber mounts really fast, but I do worry running the pump constantly without oil could ruin it.  

So I hear my daughter is out of the shower and I should be able to get over there soon.  

EdTheHeaterMan

The motor mounts won't get damaged by any oil if it never gets to the mount. But a motor that old... I wouldn't be surprised if those rubber mounts are not already a little saggy. The point is to not let that much oil ever get there. Just a drop or 2 every year. that way they will never overflow and drip down to the motor mount.

As far as the outside of the motor housing... I believe the normal operating range of that motor is as high as 125°F. Now I can't keep my hand in 125° water for more than a second or two without scalding. If you can keep your hand on the motor for more than a few seconds then that motor is at or below 120°F. Not all the motors operate that hot, but the fact that it is not over 125°F means that it is probably OK.

Do you have an infrared or surface thermometer to test the motor temperature?

Mr.Ed

mknmike

EdTheHeaterMan said:

The motor mounts won't get damaged by any oil if it never gets to the mount. But a motor that old... I wouldn't be surprised if those rubber mounts are not already a little saggy. The point is to not let that much oil ever get there. Just a drop or 2 every year. that way they will never overflow and drip down to the motor mount. As far as the outside of the motor housing... I believe the normal operating range of that motor is as high as 125°F. Now I can't keep my hand in 125° water for more than a second or two without scalding. If you can keep your hand on the motor for more than a few seconds then that motor is at or below 120°F. Not all the motors operate that hot, but the fact that it is not over 125°F means that it is probably OK. Do you have an infrared or surface thermometer to test the motor temperature? Mr.Ed

I do have an IR and will bring it over.  It’s pretty sure off by a bunch so I will shoot it at the house thermostats and see how far off it is.  I’m not sure how to calibrate it at 125 or so, but at 68 F, that’s easy.  

Grabbing my oil and seeing if maybe my 10 year old son has a syringe I can steal from him.  He has all kinds of art stuff and is off school tomorrow.

EdTheHeaterMan

Here is a book on servicing that circulator pump: https://documentlibrary.xylemappliedwater.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/22/files/2012/07/HS-105-SM-R4.pdf. It may not be the exact pump you have but I believe the motor mounts are the same.

Here is a picture of what I'm talking about.

mknmike

As I was looking for a place to set down the plug for the last one I was about to fill, I see this.  Assclown I am.  

EdTheHeaterMan

Now that is a container of no. 20 oil !!!!!

LOL

mattmia2

I wouldn't turn the aquastat below 150 or so, at 140 the return water temp is likely to be cool enough to cause condensing in the boiler.

mknmike

mattmia2 said:

I wouldn't turn the aquastat below 150 or so, at 140 the return water temp is likely to be cool enough to cause condensing in the boiler.

Thanks for this tip.  Is the idea that getting the heat up for some period of the burn cycle will burn off any condensation?

What we experience most of the time is the boiler rarely getting above 120 F, and then the circulators shutting off and no primary loop to run water through the boiler, nor any air purge between the boiler and the expansion tank.  So when the circulators shut off and the boiler keeps firing until it hits 180, we get all sorts of banging and bubbling and shaking that absolutely must not be good for the pipes. I would prefer to replace the boiler than have to replace pipes buried in the walls.  So, if this rots the boiler, so be it.  That’s my opinion.

My assessment is that the hot pump gets above 120 F, perhaps below 130 F, because I don’t want to keep my hand on there.  My IR is a POS Ryobi that is way off.  Probably 28 degrees too low. So it’s totally unreliable.  Even after adding oil, it got hot like this.  Who knows?  Maybe it’s lower now, but I can rest easy with piece of mind that the pumps have had oil added.

mknmike

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Now that is a container of no. 20 oil !!!!! LOL

Ironically it says “2” on it, not 20.  Oh well.  Whatever.  

mattmia2

The boiler is set up as warm start, it fires regardless of a heat call? If so unless it is serving a tankless coil I'd change it to cold start.

Condensation happens when the return water temp is below about 140 and it cools the flue gasses to the point that the water in it condenses on the cast iron inside the boiler.

I am assuming this is a cast iron boiler, but I'll ask what kind of boiler is this? A cast iron boiler should be perfectly happy firing up to high limit with no circulation.

mattmia2

Looking at your other post I see it is a ci boiler. With all the system mass from the old gravity system you probably need a bypass from supply to return to keep the return water temp up.

mknmike

mattmia2 said:

Looking at your other post I see it is a ci boiler. With all the system mass from the old gravity system you probably need a bypass from supply to return to keep the return water temp up.

I agree.  I need a primary loop.  Unfortunately, if those pumps block the flow, there’s no where for the boiler to get water.  So yes, maybe even just a bypass (of at least one pump, most likely the one on the 4” return) would make it all work ok, but ideally, I think that any time the boiler is firing, water should be circulating through it.  

The problem my system had this morning was that (for whatever reason) after the thermostats stopped calling for heat, and the circulator pump stopped (on that big 4” return loop) the boiler would continue firing until it hit the setpoint of 180 F.  Immediately after the gurgling and banging of all the pipes would begin.  

And video 5 shows the crusty rust that’s already fallen off the boiler.  And it’s been set at 180 F.  So it’s not like that setting has stopped the rust.  

I’m excited to get a modcon.  I expect that this  boiler will take me through the summer of 2022.  Maybe I can figure out where I want a new modcon to be installed.  I am thinking of moving at least the water heater to be opposite side of the house where most of the hot water fixtures are.  Maybe a modcon with a really big primary loop would work well with a heater over there.  I don’t know.  Maybe I should eliminate the massive pipes.  I don’t know.  I think that’s for another thread though.   

retiredguy

Let me add a thought or two. First off the guys like @EdTheHeaterMan have been doing this work for a long time and offer good advice like no more than 1-2 drops of oil in the front and back bearings and more in the bearing hole. If you add too much oil in the bearing reservoir, the excess will run out. To get an idea of the working of the reservoir you could remove the square cap and look into the reservoir and you will see a bunch of "wicking" that lubes the shaft. On the side of that reservoir is an overflow hole that drains the excess oil out of the reservoir. Years ago, I spoke with a B&G engineer and he recommended to slowly add oil to the reservoir until the oil flows out the overflow and then let it alone and check it in about 10 years, but continue to oil the motor every year. An over-oiled bearing assembly may take some time to allow the excess oil to flow out so make sure that you place something below the pump to capture the excess oil. On a new "out-of-the-box" pump you get a tube of B&G oil with markings on the tube. The smallest mark amounts are for the motor bearings and the largest mark amount is for the bearing itself. I always carried a few tubes of B&G oil in my truck for those pumps. As for the temperature of the motors, they are not too hot until you can not hold your hand on the motor. They have a temperature rise factor built into them as do all motors, so using your hand and saying it is too warm is not an accurate assumption.

As for the noise in the piping, I am going to guess that it is from the water boiling in the top of the boiler and flowing to the expansion tank. You did not say where the operating temperature limit is located so it's location could be a contributing factor. I noticed that the thermometer is located in the discharge piping so the actual boiler water temperature may be much higher than the gauge indicates and it's calibration may be way off. I always had problems similar to yours when an old style boiler was replaced with a new style, more efficient and lower water content boiler. When the pumps would shut off the operating limit would not respond quick enough to shut off the boiler before the water in the boiler exceeded the boiling point. Changing the operating limit's location and/or lowering the set point may cure this problem or you could rewire the controls for a cold start boiler. I do not why they removed the original boiler but I do know that you rarely remove a hot water boiler due to it's age. The "pay back" from the fuel savings is way too long or probably not in your lifetime.

mknmike

retiredguy said:

Let me add a thought or two. First off the guys like @EdTheHeaterMan have been doing this work for a long time and offer good advice like no more than 1-2 drops of oil in the front and back bearings and more in the bearing hole. If you add too much oil in the bearing reservoir, the excess will run out. To get an idea of the working of the reservoir you could remove the square cap and look into the reservoir and you will see a bunch of "wicking" that lubes the shaft. On the side of that reservoir is an overflow hole that drains the excess oil out of the reservoir. Years ago, I spoke with a B&G engineer and he recommended to slowly add oil to the reservoir until the oil flows out the overflow and then let it alone and check it in about 10 years, but continue to oil the motor every year. An over-oiled bearing assembly may take some time to allow the excess oil to flow out so make sure that you place something below the pump to capture the excess oil. On a new "out-of-the-box" pump you get a tube of B&G oil with markings on the tube. The smallest mark amounts are for the motor bearings and the largest mark amount is for the bearing itself. I always carried a few tubes of B&G oil in my truck for those pumps. As for the temperature of the motors, they are not too hot until you can not hold your hand on the motor. They have a temperature rise factor built into them as do all motors, so using your hand and saying it is too warm is not an accurate assumption. As for the noise in the piping, I am going to guess that it is from the water boiling in the top of the boiler and flowing to the expansion tank. You did not say where the operating temperature limit is located so it's location could be a contributing factor. I noticed that the thermometer is located in the discharge piping so the actual boiler water temperature may be much higher than the gauge indicates and it's calibration may be way off. I always had problems similar to yours when an old style boiler was replaced with a new style, more efficient and lower water content boiler. When the pumps would shut off the operating limit would not respond quick enough to shut off the boiler before the water in the boiler exceeded the boiling point. Changing the operating limit's location and/or lowering the set point may cure this problem or you could rewire the controls for a cold start boiler. I do not why they removed the original boiler but I do know that you rarely remove a hot water boiler due to it's age. The "pay back" from the fuel savings is way too long or probably not in your lifetime.

In my current house, we replaced the boiler to switch to natural gas.  I know the underground storage tank was removed around the year 2002 in this house.  That leaves a window between 2002 and 2011, and perhaps the oil tank removal had nothing to do with any heater work.  I do see that the heater is connected with flex piping.  I don’t see where anyone would have had an indoor oil tank.  So I will assume that the system was converted to gas on or before 2002.  None of that explains why the boiler was replaced in 2011.  Maybe the cold temps from such a massive return pipes cause condensation and make the system a boiler-killer.  ???