Pex AL Pex for gas

kcopp

Anyone seen this yet? Used it?
Looks wild...
Not sure I would try it. https://www.jonesstephens.com/pexalgas/

Ironman

Is been available overseas for sometime.

I’m wondering if my pex-al-pex pressing tongues will work with it?

ChrisJ

HDPE piping has been used for gas underground for a long time without issue.
Pex is just crosslinked polyethene.

That said, I'll be sticking with threaded black iron my self indoors.

offdutytech

The firefighter in me says nope and seeing first hand the failures that occur in pex during a structure fire. Granted we always shut off the gas to a house when we arrive and the house is on fire. It's those few minutes before we arrive that would have me concerned, especially if it's in a house with modern construction methods. All that OSB in new builds is basically compressed gasoline when it burns. Using poly gas pipe underground no problem. Ill stick with black pipe inside. Here is the European standard that's listed on the cut sheet of that tubing.

https://www.peroni.com/lang_UK/_download/EN_Reaction_to_Fire_Classification.pdf

ChrisJ

offdutytech said:

The firefighter in me says nope and seeing first hand the failures that occur in pex during a structure fire. Granted we always shut off the gas to a house when we arrive and the house is on fire. It's those few minutes before we arrive that would have me concerned, especially if it's in a house with modern construction methods. All that OSB in new builds is basically compressed gasoline when it burns. Using poly gas pipe underground no problem. Ill stick with black pipe inside. Here is the European standard that's listed on the cut sheet of that tubing.

https://www.peroni.com/lang_UK/_download/EN_Reaction_to_Fire_Classification.pdf

The materials used for buildings and furniture is very scary.
I've wondered many times why there's so many videos and warnings about how fast a dry Christmas tree burns but no mention of the furniture in the room around the tree.


Interesting point though.
PVC sprinkler systems the piping is filled with water and someone once said if the fire is that hot in that spot maybe you want it to melt there anyway.

Obviously gas filled pex doesn't have any cooling action going on..............

mattmia2

It does however have an aluminum layer. If you have a fire intense enough to melt the aluminum, melting the thin stainless of csst isn't far off.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Looks like it's already approved.

Hopefully better than gastight

offdutytech

Like most building materials that are approved these days it meets "code", but is it the best choice? Case in point. Stick build homes where the trusses were built on site and nailed have less failure rate in a fire than those trusses using gusset plates. Sheath those gusset plate trusses in OSB and you loose the roof integrity very quickly under fire conditions. But hey at least it was cheaper to build lol. 
We have have a few fires where the house was piped in PEX for the water lines and melting of the PEX actually helped suppress the fire. Having seen that not totally sold on poly tube for gas pipe in a home. Underground where the likelyhood of fire is much less no problem. One might argue but what if a gas main in poly pipe gets hit and broken. Most of the time when mains get hit they are too fuel rich to burn. 
@ChrisJ google UL legacy fuel vs modern fuel. You will see time lapse videos of rooms containing old furniture vs new furniture and the time it takes to reach flashover temps.

mattmia2

The code is mostly concerned with giving the occupants enough time to escape and preventing spread to adjacent structures, not with preserving the structure, right?

offdutytech

@mattmia2 somewhat accurate if you are referring to a single family home that is standalone. It's a bit different when you get into multi family construction like condos , apartments and townhomes. Where codes most likely dictate a fire stop or partition between units. In this case they are trying to stop the spread between units. One of the reasons some places get all worked up about fire caulk around mechanical pipes / conduit / etc passing through walls in this type of construction. Heck even regular drywall has a fire resistive properties and that hollow core door in your bedroom. Google close before you doze. The UL has a awesome video showing how simply closing a door in your bedroom helps stop fire spread. It's worth a watch

EBEBRATT-Ed

As far as gas goes it is a hazardous material as far as I am concerned and should always be done in black pipe. I never liked gastight and I don't like the idea of pex for gas either.

Just too easy for something bad to happen.

I just pointed out that it is approved.

And if it is approved then some will install it.

By coincidence, I have my MA gas code update class tomorrow at 7:00 am

MA adopts NFPA 54 for natural and 58 for propane (with some MA amendments)

Just wondering if this will be one of the amendments............................................

STEVEusaPA

There’s also a bonding/ground issue.

mattmia2

STEVEusaPA said:

There’s also a bonding/ground issue.

technically the nec requires you to bond the aluminum in pex-al-pex in other applications as well. not sure if the fittings accomplish this or not.

Ironman

mattmia2 said:

There’s also a bonding/ground issue.

technically the nec requires you to bond the aluminum in pex-al-pex in other applications as well. not sure if the fittings accomplish this or not.

I’ve never heard of this. Can you cite the code section that requires this for pex-al-pex?

Intplm.

No. No and NO!

I have used the other yellow for underground but this just worries me.

It's holding gas. It's flexible and can be punctured relatively easily in an installation.

Very worried about this product. Time? Will tell?

mattmia2

This is specific to plumbing and you could argue that it won't get energized. Normally this requirement is covered by the equipment it is connected to being bonded through the equipment grounding conductor and it being connected to the metallic parts of the equipment. Also brings in to question the legality of dielectric fittings. I thought there was a more general section applying to all metalic building components but I can't find that at the moment.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Originally the problem with "gastight" was there was no bonding and if the gas like got hit by lightening (and it did) it could start a fire (and it did)

Then they came out with :counterstrike which had internal bonding or you are supposed to put a bonding wire to jump the flex.

As far as other metal piping black gas pipe is considered bonded by the equipment it supplies gas to because the equipment ground conductor takes care of that. Metal water piping is supposed to be bonded to the electric service. Small metal elbows like on pex don't have to be bonded. sinks and tubs if fed by pex should be bonded if likely to become energized

Think a ss kitchen sink fed by pex with a disposal it would be bonded without a disposal it wouldn't be

mattmia2

If this is now ok, can we have close nipples and 1 nominal size reducing bushings?

Derheatmeister

Based on the way the europeans build solid homes i would not have a problem using this in europe..Based on the huff and puff stick frame construction i wound not use this due to the possible exposure to a fire..