Need help understanding how this works

Stylez777

So in 3 days I've had 3 different plumbers out all who have tons of high ratings, prob 3 of the most top rated in my area and all 3 have said different things about how my system works and I am no closer to having an answer about doing what I want to do (split the basement and living room into separate zone)



It is tight so this is kinda the best overall picture I can get that sorta shows most what I trying to figure out.
A. I know is the circulator pump and I assume the water pushes through this in the direction of the arrow when heat is called for? The pipe above the circulator always feels hot, tracing those pipes and the branches the all feel hot, all the time.

B. I know is a zone valve controller for the indirect hot water heater to the left.
C-E. I know are zone valve controllers for heat to my zones. Thermostat sends single and they open and allow hot water to pass (unless I'm wrong).
F. That should be the return to the boiler I would assume?

Now..I've had the plumbers all tell me different things, Specifically for Zone Valve C, which is the loop on the basement then feeds up to the living room and kitchen (the one I want to split) I would have assumed the water would travel from the boiler to the zone valve past it to the left and into the system, but one guy was telling me that is not the case, that it actually returns there, which just seems so weird to me, but then that leaves me to wonder, those zone valves don't connect anywhere to the pipe coming out of the Circulator Pump, if you follow up A the pipe branches 3 times. One goes across to the Hot Water heater directly, the other 2 spots go up into the wall and I can't follow it.

So this is driving me nuts trying to figure out what the heck is going on here and trying to know who is right and finding someone who can do this job for me. I know it is hard to tell from pictures, but what can I do to try and figure out which direction the water is flowing in these pipes, why the water pipe out from the circulator and it's branches is always hot even if no zone is calling for heat, and if this should even be happening, where is that hot water going? I'll post more pic below hopefully it helps and maybe someone can help me with trying to figure out what is going on here, and the more I know maybe the more confident I'll be finding a plumber to do this job that won't make things worse.

Big Ed_4

There are arrows on circulators and zone valves for directions of water flow .

hot_rod

never a good sign to see a bucket under a relief valve😗

Jamie Hall

Your plumbers may be highly rated, but the fact of the matter is that if they can't figure out how to split that zone into two zones --which is easy to do -- they don't know what they are doing.

Not something I (or any of us) can do easily if at all just from pictures -- you have enough of a tangle there to make it a little difficult to say cut here and put in a zone valve and a line to the second area, and cut there and put in a T for the new return -- which is all that's needed -- but something which would be easy on the sute.

If you had someone who knew what she or he was doing.

Where are you located? We just might know someone...

EdTheHeaterMan

See Edit with Diagram

Here is a good resource to get started. I used this to teach a one day seminar for the Eastern Heating and Cooling Council. Mostly professional attendees but the occasional DIY homeowner. It is easy to understand and gives you a basic knowledge in order to tell if the Pro knows what they are talking about. http://media.blueridgecompany.com/documents/ZoningMadeEasy.pdf
And it's free.

From what I can see, You have three thermostats and a water heater for a total of 4 zones. A 1" copper pipe feeds and returns the indirect water heater. The other three are 3/4" copper pipe which leads me to believe you have copper tube with aluminum fin baseboard radiators. It should be very simple to "Split" the basement and living room zone at a point where the basement baseboard stops and the 3/4" pipe goes into the wall or ceiling to the living room.

EDIT:

This diagram shows what you most likely have. (or close to it.)

See how each zone must have a path from the circulator pump, to the radiators (or the DHW Tank) and back to the return of the boiler? If you follow the basement heating pipe back from the zone valve to the point where it disappears, cut it there, then connect a new zone valve to the pipe from the wall or ceiling to complete that loop (from the living room to the zone valve). The pipe that is left open from the basement must be connected to a new tee added on the supply pipe just after the circulator pump. This will complete the basement loop. (as illustrated in red)


The new basement thermostat wire will need to be connected to Valve C and the Living room thermostat will need to be connected to the new zone valve.
I would suggest that you also purchase from the contractor a 6 Zone Valve Relay, because you can't put 6 valves on one 40 VA transformer. (the most common used for zone valves)
A 6 Zone relay will also make troubleshooting in the future easier.

For a contractor that knows how to do this, you must expect to pay a premium. The regular plumber that knows about water heaters, sinks and drains, might not be the best at designing and repairing Boiler Systems. (and he is entitled to put a mark-up on the parts he sells) That is why DIY is often cheeper, but can get to be more expensive if you don't know what you are doing.

I hope this helps.

Mr.Ed

Stylez777

Jamie Hall said:

Your plumbers may be highly rated, but the fact of the matter is that if they can't figure out how to split that zone into two zones --which is easy to do -- they don't know what they are doing.

Not something I (or any of us) can do easily if at all just from pictures -- you have enough of a tangle there to make it a little difficult to say cut here and put in a zone valve and a line to the second area, and cut there and put in a T for the new return -- which is all that's needed -- but something which would be easy on the sute.

If you had someone who knew what she or he was doing.

Where are you located? We just might know someone...

Honestly, that is all I want, someone who knows what they are doing, will quote a fair price for the work. I am in Long Island NY. So if you have someone you could recommend I'm happy to call and have them come look. Most the walls are open in the basement because I am renovating, so this the time I want to make these changes and get this setup right.

Stylez777

hot_rod said:

never a good sign to see a bucket under a relief valve😗

That bucket was in the corner, the guys moved it there months ago while they were working on the washing machine hookup. Not a drop of water or leak of anything other then some falling insulation has ever come down.

EdTheHeaterMan

Stylez777 said:

Honestly, that is all I want, someone who knows what they are doing, will quote a fair price for the work. I am in Long Island NY. So if you have someone you could recommend I'm happy to call and have them come look. Most the walls are open in the basement because I am renovating, so this the time I want to make these changes and get this setup right.

There are plenty of qualified contractors there. Try the "Find A Contractor" link above

Stylez777

EdTheHeaterMan said:

For a contractor that knows how to do this, you must expect to pay a premium. The regular plumber that knows about water heaters, sinks and drains, might not be the best at designing and repairing Boiler Systems. ( and he is entitled to put a mark-up on the parts he sells. That is why DIY is often cheeper, but can get to be more expensive if you don't know what you are doing.

I hope this helps.

Mr.Ed

Mr. Ed,

Thank you for such a detailed response, the article alone was a GREAT read. The diagrams are really helpful and at first glance, myself I didn't think this was something that would be "hard" but def a skilled heating specialist should have been able to figure this out.

Now I am going to drop a few more pics, just to give you more of an idea of things in the loop cause one part gets tricky and is the part that been hanging guys up and confusing me.

So working backwards from the boiler room the pic below circled in green the return pipe for the zone in question i want to split in the basement.



On the other side of the boiler room wall is the basement bathroom that has a baseboard radiator that is connected to the previous picture circled pipe, so this is essentially the last heater on the loop.


tracing back it goes under the concrete slab comes out here and travels around the room some 45 feet before it gets to the staircase


As you can see here, it goes up the across and in the next picture is where it gets confusing.


Here is where it T off. The near pipe goes up into that subfloor, hits a radiator, runs 6 feet, then goes up and travels through the living room, kitchen etc. the other side of the T runs under the stairs to the other side, goes up hits another 6 foot radiators the the end of that turns into the garage and since I haven't open any walls there no idea where that leads back too.




So I am assuming this area here under the stairs is where things are going to happen, the new supply run off into the basement only loop which would keep it current zone and thermostat in the basement, and then a return line off something else that would be on the upstairs loop and it would be the new return with new valve and new thermostat to operate that valve. Now granted, I'd probably really need to open some walls in the garage to see where that pipe leads out of the far radiator on the other side of the stairs, for all I know it could already be tying back into a return somewhere.

I'm not doing this work myself, but understanding this all, can help me find someone and explain what I want to them effectively and hopefully find the right person to do the job.

EdTheHeaterMan

Glad I could help you get the picture. Dan H (the originator of this forum) would say, "You got to see it in your minds eye" and "if I were the hot water, which way would i go?"

Good Luck finding a good Hydronics guy/gal/other.

If all else fails, go the the local supply house in your area and ask the guy behind the counter or the store manager, "Who is one of your best Hydronics Contractors/Plumbers that understands how to make zone valves work." Those guys know who screws up that stuff, and who always gets it right. I know because I was the guy in the supply house that had to deal with the ones who screwed up all the time.

mattmia2

There are definitely several good hydronics people in Long Island that spend time here. @JohnNY and @EzzyT are 2 of them but there are also others. I think @Mad Dog_2 is also in that area.

It hasn't been explicitly mentioned, but if you close off either end of the pipe, water will stop flowing through it. Usually the supply end is closed, but it works on the return end too. There is some ghost flow due to gravity within the pipe, that is why your pipes are hot. It appears the boiler is set up warm start, it is kept hot all the time. It could be changed to cold start as part of the installation of the zone controller, that will save some fuel.

You don't have to work out how the supply gets to the living room within the walls, you just need to bypass the basement loop to the zone valve and add another return and valve for the basement. I would replace that beat up fin tube element in the basement while I had everything open. I would use panel radiators but new fin tube would be cheaper.

It sounded like the one that said the valves are on the return understood at least some of it, they might be worth further investigation. Also some people may understand it well but be bad at explaining it.

The wrapping paper through the hole in the ceiling is a nice touch.

Mad Dog_2

What town Pal?  I cover to Montauk and Greenport and everything in between.  Here to help .  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

You need an independent arbiter who advocates for YOU.  Someone that can explain what you have AND what you want. This way, you can make an educated decision on whom to hire. This is what I do... Mad Dog 🐕 

EdTheHeaterMan

Hay everyone... This is an old post that I posted to by mistake If they didn't find an answer here back in March 2022, then there is no reason to offer them answers now. Sorry I put this back at the top! I did remove the post and placed oops, wrong discussion. in its place.

Please pass this one bye

Mad Dog_2

Ha ha....no worries Mr Ed.  You do wonder how they made out.  Hopefully, the OP sees it and replies.  Mad Dog 🐕