Boiler and Hot Water Heater Replacement

csabNY

Oil powered Boiler is leaking and my hot water heater is near the end of its life. We have 2 very different quotes from 2 different companies to consider:

Option 1:
System 2000 with attached 40 gal hot water tank
Redo piping (salesperson says it’s so bad currently)
Add vent to the outside
$$$$

Option 2:
Burham 3 Pass boiler
Superstore hot water tank
No new piping, just replacing intake & Return
$$ 

Which is a better system? Option 1 is nearly double the price. Does my current piping really need to be changed? Is a cut and swap a bad idea? Will I save a lot more in fuel costs with the System 2000?

Home is 1960’s split level, 5 zones. 2000 sq ft plus 1000 sq ft finished basement.

I appreciate any advice you can give. Thank you!

EdTheHeaterMan

Please remove the pricing and read the Website policy.

EdTheHeaterMan

Hay, I understand you have questions on the price regarding the BOILER prices. You may not be comparing Apples to Oranges. It sounds like the price difference does not reflect the sellers cost difference of the boiler alone.

If i was bidding this job, I would include all new circulators for each zone, new thermostats, Multi zone relay, many other parts I call "Boiler Set Up" and redesign the near boiler piping to promote accelerated air removal by PUMPING AWAY FROM THE EXPANSION TANK, where the expansion tank is on the supply pipe out of the boiler.

Perhaps the EK System 2000 includes all that. The Burnham may just be a cut and replace leaving the near boiler piping as is. That may be the $ #,000 price difference.

My pricing policy eliminates this: You buy a new system and spending $ LOW,000 on this new boiler, . I then give you a $ @00.00 bill for the repair. You then say "I just spent $ LOW,000 on a new heater and my heater does not work... and now you want me to pay $ @00 more? What kind of outfit are you running here?" I Get a bad review on Yelp, Google, and FakeBook.

Same problem with the EK 2000. for $ HIGH,000. No heat call = Covered by warranty, We made a mistake or had a bad part from the factory and we stand by our work. That is why we offer this warranty.

Jamie Hall

As has been said, kindly edit out the prices. No harm to saying one costs more than the other -- but no numbers, please.

That said, are you yourself asking the right questions? Are they? Did anyone actually do a heat loss calculation on the house -- Manual J, it's called -- or are they going from the existing boiler size? Have you asked yourself if the existing system gives you heat where and when you want it, and can you control it? Enough hot water? Too little?

I ask the latter questions because one quote says you need a lot of new piping -- but do you? If it works as you would like, is there really a need for new? And if so, why? Is a 40 gallon hot water tank really big enough? Or is it ample?

csabNY

Thank you, Jamie. I agree, we are comfortable with the way it is, no issues. Just wondering if the 2000 system and new piping would add efficiency?

Jamie Hall

csabNY said:

Thank you, Jamie. I agree, we are comfortable with the way it is, no issues. Just wondering if the 2000 system and new piping would add efficiency?

Some. Perhaps 5% over the year. Is that enough? Can't tell you that!

csabNY

Jamie Hall said:

Thank you, Jamie. I agree, we are comfortable with the way it is, no issues. Just wondering if the 2000 system and new piping would add efficiency?

Some. Perhaps 5% over the year. Is that enough? Can't tell you that!

Wow, only 5%. That is only 50-60 gallons a year based on our avg. oil consumption.

One more question if you don’t mind. Is there any other benefit to changing the pipes that I’m missing? Are the old or corroding? Will they leak soon?

Thanks for your time and help!

EdTheHeaterMan

The reason for repiping to a pumping away from the boiler design is to eliminate air in the system. There are very involved discussions about Oxygen dissolved in make up water that site Henry's law and Boyle's and the physics of water. Lets just say that you want to promote air removal from the system in order to increase the life of the piping system and other nonferrous metals like the boiler and pumps and such. A better piping design will accomplish that.

I notice that you currently have a Burnham Boiler. It looks fairly new. If it is leaking, is there any warranty left on it? There may be a 25 year or Lifetime prorated warranty that can be applied to that replacement job using the Burnham at the lower cost. If it is leaking, could it have lasted longer if it was not having issues with air removal? I don't know if you have issues with air in your system and if there is a problem with excess makeup water. I just don't want anything I recommend or install to have those problems.

Just an opinion of a 40+ year veteran of the residential Boiler installation and service business who has worked on thousands of different system. But what do I know? LOL

csabNY

EdTheHeaterMan said:

The reason for repiping to a pumping away from the boiler design is to eliminate air in the system. There are very involved discussions about Oxygen dissolved in make up water that site Henry's law and Boyle's and the physics of water. Lets just say that you want to promote air removal from the system in order to increase the life of the piping system and other nonferrous metals like the boiler and pumps and such. A better piping design will accomplish that. I notice that you currently have a Burnham Boiler. It looks fairly new. If it is leaking, is there any warranty left on it? There may be a 25 year or Lifetime prorated warranty that can be applied to that replacement job using the Burnham at the lower cost. If it is leaking, could it have lasted longer if it was not having issues with air removal? I don't know if you have issues with air in your system and if there is a problem with excess makeup water. I just don't want anything I recommend or install to have those problems. Just an opinion of a 40+ year veteran of the residential Boiler installation and service business who has worked on thousands of different system. But what do I know? LOL

Thank you for taking the time to reply. You bring up some good points. The Burnham is only 20 years old but the cast iron has corroded, likely from hard water for many years. We put in a water softener only 3 years ago after purchasing the home. Burnham will give us a small rebate if we stay with Burnham (no warranty, was not transferable). So you recommend sticking with Burnham but the 3 pass version and redoing the piping for better air flow?

Jamie Hall

Oops!!!! Don't, just don't, use home water softener softened water in a boiler. It contains a good deal of chloride, and is about the fastest way to ruin a boiler than I know of. If you need softened water for your domestic water, that's fine, but take your boiler feed from BEFORE the water softener, not after.

In fact, I hate to say this but that may be what did your present boiler in...

csabNY

Jamie Hall said:

Oops!!!! Don't, just don't, use home water softener softened water in a boiler. It contains a good deal of chloride, and is about the fastest way to ruin a boiler than I know of. If you need softened water for your domestic water, that's fine, but take your boiler feed from BEFORE the water softener, not after. In fact, I hate to say this but that may be what did your present boiler in...

Oh wow. I am very overwhelmed by this decision. I want someone who knows what they are doing and is going to make the right recommendation. I’m worried they are giving me a new boiler but are not taking the whole picture into account. I will have to check where the boiler feed is. Thank you!

csabNY

How do I choose a reputable installer? How do I insure they are looking out for my best interests? Set up, efficiency, air flow, etc.

Roger

Thank you @csabNY and everyone for your posts.
If you'd like for us to work with you and review your application with your Energy Kinetics dealer, please call us at (800) 323-2066 or PM me with your contact information, city and state, and we can connect you with your territory manager to help answer questions and offer advice where we can.
Best,
Roger

csabNY

Thanks @Roger, I just called and a territory manager will call me back. Maybe another quote on the system 2000 could be helpful.

SuperTech

I would go with the System 2000, just as long as it's installed properly. Energy Kinetics offers their boilers with or without the near boiler piping. I would get it with the near boiler piping and the hot water storage tank. With the plate heat exchanger the 40 gallon water heater should provide almost endless hot water. With fuel prices as high as they are it makes sense to get the best boiler possible. I'm not a big fan of Burnham, the V8 and V7 series boilers are known leakers but the MPO three pass boilers are nice. The installing contractor is the most important factor in the quality of any boiler installation, hopefully you can find a suitable installer to put in a nice EK-1 Frontier for you.