Geothermal

wmgeorge

Try doing a search and find out for yourself? https://homeinspectioninsider.com/heat-pump-vs-geothermal-systems-which-is-best/

Yet another > https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/geothermal-heat-pumps

Again https://www.waterfurnace.com/residential/about-geothermal/how-much-is-geo

Hot_water_fan

On average, a homeowner can expect total expenses to reach between $18,000 to $30,000 on geothermal heating and cooling cost. This cost would cover a complete geothermal installation. The price can range from $30,000 to $45,000 with high-end ground-source heat pump systems for large homes

This quote is from ClimateMaster, the folks that make these things. That's 3x to 7x more than quotes I got for ASHP. I don't need to research this: I know what geothermal is, I know it works great, I know it lasts longer, I know sometimes it pays off, and I know that most times it doesn't.

wmgeorge

Hot_water_fan said:

On average, a homeowner can expect total expenses to reach between $18,000 to $30,000 on geothermal heating and cooling cost. This cost would cover a complete geothermal installation. The price can range from $30,000 to $45,000 with high-end ground-source heat pump systems for large homes

This quote is from ClimateMaster, the folks that make these things. That's 3x to 7x more than quotes I got for ASHP. I don't need to research this: I know what geothermal is, I know it works great, I know it lasts longer, I know sometimes it pays off, and I know that most times it doesn't.

What part of New England are you from and did you get another quote? So if your a fan of hot water heat just keep paying.

Hot_water_fan

@wmgeorge I have a heat pump. The quote is from their website, I didn’t get a geothermal quote, because it’s so expensive. The point is that geothermal works, but is expensive. If you can save a lot of kwh and those kwh are expensive and solar isn’t an option (or budget isn’t important and you do both), then geothermal works well. But you need to check all of those boxes, which eliminates many people. For the original poster, proposing an air source + a combination of solar/insulation/air sealing might lead to a more competitive bid both comfort wise and cost wise. 

Jamie Hall

Look, you two. The plain fact is that sometimes ground source heat pumps pay off very well. In other areas at other times they don't. You have different situations and, as a result, come up with different conclusions -- which are valid for your situation and your situation only. One size does not fit all.

Hot_water_fan

@Jamie Hall that’s the perfect analogy- of course one size doesn’t fit all. But some sizes fit more people than others (shopping for large shoes makes this all too clear). And just because I can put my foot into it, doesn’t mean it’s the best fit.  That’s the point here: if we understand the pros and cons of a technology then we can provide helpful advice as to when to apply it or not. I think Idronics covers the pros and cons extremely well. 

hot_rod

Maybe check out what subsidies are available in Maine here.

https://programs.dsireusa.org/system/program/me

Not sure how you feel about subsidies funded by the taxpayers:)

Keeping in mind we subsidies fossil fuels heavily. For the numbers crunchers this is about 11 million per minute coming out of the taxpayers pockets.

This webinar was present to show the pros and cons of both technologies, nothing to sell.
Except Caleffi components to make assembling it easy and efficient

hot_rod

I keep getting "you are not allowed to upload files in this category" notice

wmgeorge

The Feds have a big promotion a Tax Credit until the end of 2022 for Geothermal, ground source.

All I can say it seems like you poor folks up in the NE get every storm, snow and more!!

Erin Holohan Haskell

hot_rod said:

I keep getting "you are not allowed to upload files in this category" notice

Sorry about that, @hot_rod. I'll look into this. Please PM or email me what you're trying to upload. Thanks!

GEO80

when there was Solstar in 1980,
a simple pattern of thought was presented
---to the little GeoSolarEnergy co I was asked to do math for..
Why I say Why?
--coming from just a couple years 17 credit hour Engineering Sciences, and co-opping '70's to '80 in a testing lab-machining center, well known; and under students, those co-owners, of G-Father - inventor of cutting fluids to centerless grinder, to spiral point drill, name in dictionary under 'Orthogonal' cutting; and all about the first cutting fluids, among his 60+ working patents.... and he said to me age 4 - on, "Look for the design in everything" and discussed much of the fluid dynamics of cutting steel to fluids to hydraulics (yes , I saw the penciled HYDRO-MATIC 2 speed, before GM 'HydraMatic'...) Fluid dynamics in Energy transfer to mechanical to electrical to Solar to precise 'sounds' and motion.... I caught on to motion of things, then water, then air, to electro-mechanics... later seeing heat-transfer as a fluid dynamic for street talk...

SOLAR COMPANY (Air-to-fancoils for Dom HW and space conditioning)
Solstar, then 1980:
Better Life-Style;
Better-Building; -Insulation;
( fuel bill-er's) ;
~ will give us a best "fluid-fit" of space conditioing,
arriving at any sizing of the AIR-SOLAR HEATING (heating DHW as a side).


If I see the 'design'
of colder denser air as a fluid like water pressing in on exteriors of buildings and floors of homes, etc,
then as said above:
any space of heat loading is a load....
so even though 'loose' or tight...
WHAT and WHY is a fuel used/ vs. WHAT is to-heat to -30f, is capable to be used , vs. why or why not.

GEO80

Many times since '80 heard about load study(s)... but Solstar's trainer of a simple 12-14 line with 'Guestimating' cold air intrusion was tested and exposed:
Proven 15% to 20% more accurate, comparing against simple electric KW strip heated homes that added their then Solstar(tm) systems.
ie) 1980 3000sqft, -15f winter (potential -22f as 1994) near, zone 6, 6600+ deg days, frostlines barely above 46", etc: 3000sq ft moderate glass, older build insulated, 22 to 24 KW. That home would be considered for 20% to 30% solar addition.

Examples: same climate near z6
-in GeoThermal, later loop sizing used and taught, of the Solstar heat loss study for a decades now;
1982-1984:
watched plumber-builder, founder Grace GeoThermal Jeff Abbe (later to partner Jim Schaefer) put in 125 systems by 1984..
three or two closed loop.
-Put in/ on 'barns' using 900 gallons of oil a year , that said in 1983- $600. bucks electric heat, old TETCO (Col OH) 46k compressor, "todays 4-1/2ton 'size', COP 4.0, barely 49,000 btuh PRODUCED 4yr R.O.I.'s non-reversing, ~7 ton ~ air coil on 3.9T compressor, 5T water coil. SOME STILL ON LINE! Bristol ( bought Sunstrand compressor, if rem..)

That simple study can be seen on website of 20 years ago. Critisize the site another time.
But consider as said above "few hours -20", some one failed to just put enough total heat for comfort.

Now are you asking to just heat?
Just Heat and Cool?
Just Heat Dom Hot Water?

or using "all 3" ???

If Geo-T HtPp GTHP GSHP, then great working heat-reclaim 4- synergistic systems do that " all 3" plus DHW in A/Cooling as 100% Heat-Reclaim, to temperature set point. Also Air Heat Pumps are doing heat-recovery to DHW...

GEO80

a note:
Please see some of Steve Kavanaugh's "SOURCE" on depths and heat found at 10ft, 12' to same as Late John Jones (1978-1980 GEO-T, Dayton Ohio) --- both find 18ft begins constant temps above 50 ( here NEOH 51.9 to 52f 98% of the time, remains about 18ft deep, snowless Jan 20th-Feb20th ) if snow, 50f warmth at 12-14ft depths - or shallower.
Over-under looped ditches, scratching 8ft where possible, even lined with clay findings over/avoiding the rockies, works, but needs the dampness (?!), as said above "conditions" rule the 'fluid dynamics' of the heat transfer.

Here most systems of 70 installs and worked 2100 GThp, 3-states, service to other replacements NEOHIO are well, pond, and even stream beds in to cisterns used.

LOOPS:
Been arguing to over size to 200ft /compressor-performance- ton, like found in Water:Water units; 186ft (makes one remember) per Air-GT-Unit-Labeled "TON (12k rated for those "Tons") IF
-IF you must run the compressor 20hrs/7 a week or two-
YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO MEET PERFORMANCE GUARANTEED 34F FLUID TEMP FROM LOOP IN COLDEST AVERAGE WINTERS, AS A MINIMUM.

BEEN ADDING EXTRA LOOP SINCE 1993 and that is damp borehole-wetness within 10ft of surface. And did dry-er borehole and good damp 300ft 5-6 GPM 1" piped standard and "enhanced grout " reviews and graphic data acquisition.
-WHY just say loop-150ft per ton , I believe meant per ton of manual J load study.
-Still guessing (better nowadays) the air infiltration, or garage door or teen's bedroom windows left open.

I wanted to see the owl in the pine tree under the moon ... -wings wider than my view ! - AND THE OWL FLEW TOWARDS MY no-screen OPEN WINDOW AND OVER THE HOUSE !

saw Mentioned ClimMast/WtrFurn/ there is Bosch/Bard/Carrier/Hydro-Temp (of AR, not to be confused with Hydro-Heat- that is gone)/ Hydron: maybe see "Energy Star Geothermal Systems , Efficiency"

leonz

Being a NYSDEC certified well driller and pump installer I will always contend that the "magic" geothermal baroid grout is still crap and nothing but a sales snow job to the unsuspecting consumer.