New Viessmann Groaning/Resonation

JeremyfromMaine

GGross said:

@JeremyfromMaine

I believe it was on the return, on the domestic loop. It would not move at all in our case, however the little solenoid on the diverter valve would make a sound for about 1.5 seconds or so, about the same amount of time a phone might vibrate or just a tad longer. It was trying hard to move haha, but generally they are nearly silent, and you should not be able to hear it in another room at all. I will have to get something better to listen to your video, I can't quite make out the sound, it was quite unmistakable in my case.

EDIT: you can manually operate the diverter valve through the service menu, you can swap it to all 3 positions. If you haven't already done this it may help you to figure out if its the diverter that is causing your noise or something else.

The diverter valve was already replaced! Thanks for the help

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I've lost the details of the thread, but have you tried (if possible) unplugging some of the devices (fan, diverting valve, etc.) to see if the sound stops?

JeremyfromMaine

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

I've lost the details of the thread, but have you tried (if possible) unplugging some of the devices (fan, diverting valve, etc.) to see if the sound stops?

Hi Alan. I will certainly give mess around some more this week as you have suggested and will keep you updated. I really do appreciate the help.

pedmec

i'm gonna take a stab at it. you don't have hydraulic separation. your system circulator is piping into the low loss header at the bottom which is also the return connection for your boiler loop. they are both acting like circulators in series which is increasing the flow thru the diverting valve faster than designed. your heating loop is shooting directly across your low loss header. move your system circulator on the supply side and the zone valves on the return, as recommended anyway.

EdTheHeaterMan

I'm surprised to see this back on top. Still a groaner? Is it possible that all you need to do is stop telling DAD JOKES?

EdTheHeaterMan

pedmec said:

i'm gonna take a stab at it. you don't have hydraulic separation. your system circulator is piping into the low loss header at the bottom which is also the return connection for your boiler loop. they are both acting like circulators in series which is increasing the flow thru the diverting valve faster than designed. your heating loop is shooting directly across your low loss header. move your system circulator on the supply side and the zone valves on the return, as recommended anyway.

Good Eye! Could be the one thing that no one will ever notice... Until someone does!

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

@pedmec said:

i'm gonna take a stab at it. you don't have hydraulic separation. your system circulator is piping into the low loss header at the bottom which is also the return connection for your boiler loop. they are both acting like circulators in series which is increasing the flow thru the diverting valve faster than designed. your heating loop is shooting directly across your low loss header. move your system circulator on the supply side and the zone valves on the return, as recommended anyway.

I like it. A good way to test that is to disconnect the boiler pump and see if the groaning goes away. I would disconnect it when the boiler has reached setpoint.

GGross

Reading back through this and looking at that video again the system pump makes sense as the culprit. The boiler has a separate internal loop for the domestic water heater so when it switches to DHW heating the only thing we really change is that the system pump will no longer run. It should be changed anyway as the system pump is pumping straight at the low loss header on the return and should be pumping away from it on the supply.

JeremyfromMaine

@gross654444 @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes @pedmec I just double checked the piping layout and it appears everything is correct per the Viessmann diagram below. Any other thoughts?

GGross

@JeremyfromMaine Pump D in your drawing is installed in your system on the return (blue line to the right of D on your drawing) Unless I am really seeing the video you shared wrong

pedmec

thats exactly what i was see.

MikeL_2

I had a customer with a similar vibration / resonating issue several years ago on a new Viessmann boiler install. After an on site consultation with the local Viessmann rep, we traced the cause to a spring check valve on one of the secondary supply circuits. The valves cracking pressure was too high.

JeremyfromMaine

GGross said:

@JeremyfromMaine Pump D in your drawing is installed in your system on the return (blue line to the right of D on your drawing) Unless I am really seeing the video you shared wrong

@pedmec @GGross @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes I stand corrected, the pump is in fact on the return side of the heating loop and is piped right into the return side of the LLH. Can't believe I didn't catch that!

GGross

@JeremyfromMaine update us if that seems to fix the issue.

Jibber82

@JeremyfromMaine I am having this exact same issue with my newly installed Veissmann B1HE-120. Did you ever find a solution?

psb75

Not very responsible of @jeremyfromMaine TO NOT RESPOND and update this forum. We all benefit with real dialogue. That requires full participation from BOTH SIDES of the forum. Jeremy received a lot of helpful suggestions and astute observations without providing important feedback.

JeremyfromMaine

Jibber82 said:

@JeremyfromMaine I am having this exact same issue with my newly installed Veissmann B1HE-120. Did you ever find a solution?

Unfortunately no this has not been resolved. My gas company even replaced the high pressure line with a low pressure line and it didn't make any difference.

I've had a few people tell me recently that 'it's just the way it is.' We're learning to live with it.

@psb75 - chill with the guilt trip.

Jibber82

JeremyfromMaine said:

@JeremyfromMaine I am having this exact same issue with my newly installed Veissmann B1HE-120. Did you ever find a solution?

Unfortunately no this has not been resolved. My gas company even replaced the high pressure line with a low pressure line and it didn't make any difference. I've had a few people tell me recently that 'it's just the way it is.' We're learning to live with it. @psb75 - chill with the guilt trip.

Well I guess if the unit is functioning normally and heating the house properly I can live with the noise. So weird.

JeremyfromMaine

Jibber82 said:

JeremyfromMaine said:

Jibber82 said:

@JeremyfromMaine I am having this exact same issue with my newly installed Veissmann B1HE-120. Did you ever find a solution?

Unfortunately no this has not been resolved. My gas company even replaced the high pressure line with a low pressure line and it didn't make any difference.

I've had a few people tell me recently that 'it's just the way it is.' We're learning to live with it.

@psb75 - chill with the guilt trip.

Well I guess if the unit is functioning normally and heating the house properly I can live with the noise. So weird.

Yeah it's definitely a bummer considering I was sold on a unit that is 'quieter than your refrigerator.' Other than that, it's a solid unit.

GGross

@JeremyfromMaine

I would still wager that something is not quite right causing this sound. I have been to around 50 installs of that exact model, and when installed correctly, and parts are not broken, you cannot hear them in the same room. It's not just marketing, you should not be able to hear it firing or operating unless you are right next to it, and it is dead quiet in the room.

I am sorry we were not able to track down the issue, I've thought about it several times since your original post and appreciate you letting us know it is still unresolved. I am assuming the system pump was moved to the supply? I know the diverter has been covered up and down, but one thing I personally would try involves the diverter. I would disconnect the call for heat, and domestic (if hooked up) manually set the diverter valve to heating position through the service menu, disconnect the diverter valve plug after it moves position , and force a call for heat. This way you would have the diverter in the correct position for heating, but not allow the boiler to operate it, this is only for testing purposes and the plug should be put back in when you are done. At least with that you could 100% eliminate the diverter valve from the equation. I know it has already been replaced, but if the issue is system related, and showing itself as "groaning" from the diverter valve, it won't matter if it's replaced or not, good or bad, it would still make that sound. The diverter valve will only operate before, or after a call for heat which lines up with groaning sound at ignition, and shutdown. Beyond that, I wonder if it is just mechanical vibration? though I seem to remember that the sound in the boiler room didn't sound like just vibration, especially considering it only happens at ignition

EDIT: this also lines up with you not having an issue when the boiler fired for domestic, the default resting positon for the diverter is in the DHW position, it does not actuate when you get a DHW call, and the noise does not occur when you get a DHW call.

JeremyfromMaine

@GGross I appreciate the thoughts.

No the system pump was never moved to the supply side. I ran that idea by my installer who then asked the Viessman rep. They both came to the conclusion that it wouldn't make a difference.

That's where everything has since ended. The installer had been fairly good about looking into the issue but hasn't been able to resolve it. The Viessman rep has now stated twice that the system is running as it should. Viessman customer service won't talk to me, only the installer.

@GGross your idea seems like a good test but is over my level of expertise unfortunately.

Any other ideas or routes I could go down? I can hear the groaning in every room in the house.

GGross

@JeremyfromMaine I would respectfully disagree with the reps assessment that the pump is fine where it is. At best you are pumping at a point of no pressure change which can and probably will cause issues down the line with air. There is no Viessmann approved piping layout that would suggest to pump at the low loss header on the return with that boiler.

We had a similar issue when the boiler first came out, difference is that our customers diverter valve never actually moved, big groaning sound, but the call was for "no hot water" they ended up changing the boiler against my wishes and the new one did the same thing. The culprit was a check valve that was not supposed to be where it was, it had worked on the previous viessmann boiler for 15 years. The point I am trying to make with this story is that I have seen something less significant cause a problem that was even worse than what you have. I would ask the installer very nicely if he would consider re-piping that pump to pump away from the low loss header on the supply.

If that does not fix it I can put together a few pictures to show you how to operate the diverter valve and the plug on it that would need to be disconnected so the boiler doesn't operate it while testing. If the installer is willing to try it I could send that info to him as well. It just seems like if that groaning is happening before and after the call for heat that it has to be something that is operating during those times, and if its coming from the boiler cabinet we can work on process of elimination

erickyung

@JeremyfromMaine
I am experiencing the same two groaning noises a couple of seconds apart when DHW starts and stops. When heating starts and stops, there are no the groaning noises. The Viessmann Vitodens 100 B1HE-199 boiler is installed on a wall right under our living room floor. With honesty, I have not noticed the noises unless I am in the same room as the boiler. Nonetheless, the noises do resonate to some pipes and they sound bad like something moved for the first time in a long time.

I've looked at the Service Diagnostics while DHW is on, the diverter valve is on DHW. As soon as DHW is off (followed by the groaning noises), the diverter valve is back on HEATING. I will mention to contractor to get some feedback from Viessmann but for now I assume the diverter value is noisy since heating and DHW are ok.

My contractor piped the circ pumps (3 zones) on the supply side like @GGross insisted. There is a low loss header in the system as well. DHW is hooked up directly to the boiler without a secondary pump - about 6ft of pipe on the supply from and 6ft on the return to the boiler.

When I get a chance, I will find something to dampen supply pipes coming out of the boiler and see if it helps. I also plan to secure the boiler a bit more because that 200lb box gives me a nervous breakdown if it falls off the wall.

I can live with the noises if that's how the diverter valve works (or struggles) but I am not ok if things grind and shorten the lifespan.

I am from Mass.

GGross

erickyung said:

@JeremyfromMaine
I am experiencing the same two groaning noises a couple of seconds apart when DHW starts and stops. When heating starts and stops, there are no the groaning noises. The Viessmann Vitodens 100 B1HE-199 boiler is installed on a wall right under our living room floor. With honesty, I have not noticed the noises unless I am in the same room as the boiler. Nonetheless, the noises do resonate to some pipes and they sound bad like something moved for the first time in a long time.

I've looked at the Service Diagnostics while DHW is on, the diverter valve is on DHW. As soon as DHW is off (followed by the groaning noises), the diverter valve is back on HEATING. I will mention to contractor to get some feedback from Viessmann but for now I assume the diverter value is noisy since heating and DHW are ok.

My contractor piped the circ pumps (3 zones) on the supply side like @GGross insisted. There is a low loss header in the system as well. DHW is hooked up directly to the boiler without a secondary pump - about 6ft of pipe on the supply from and 6ft on the return to the boiler.

When I get a chance, I will find something to dampen supply pipes coming out of the boiler and see if it helps. I also plan to secure the boiler a bit more because that 200lb box gives me a nervous breakdown if it falls off the wall.

I can live with the noises if that's how the diverter valve works (or struggles) but I am not ok if things grind and shorten the lifespan.

I am from Mass.

I can assure you the unit should not be noisy, they are very quiet, if the diverter valve can be heard under normal circumstances from another room there is something not quite right. If you have additional troubles or issues I would ask that you start a new thread, and please include photos of the install.

erickyung

I attached 4 photos of the setup. It looks pretty close to one of Viessmann recommended layouts. I will ask him to come back and install a service valve on the DHW supply side so the heat exchanger can be isolated for cleaning down the road. The heating supply is too short for a service valve so might as well not have it on the return side - this may be an issue in the future if we need to isolate the heating loop.

I also included too links to videos of the DHW starts and stops. The groans are more distinctive when it stops because at that point the fan and pump are already off. When it starts, I can hear the same groans when I am in the same room as the boiler. Use headphone to listen to the videos!!!

Noise level is relative for different people but are those groans normal? I don't notice it when I am upstairs even standing on the floor on top of it, however I do hear those groans when I am in the same room as is the boiler. I figure with additional bracing and dampening materials they would be barely noticeable even standing near it in the same room. I think when the diverter value switches, it creates some vibrations - I guess there is still a bit of flow (pressure difference) to create groans hence vibrations.

But the question is are those groans normal? Or it's just some of us expect it to whisper all the time like a well-lubed machine. Btw, Mine is installed a month ago Nov/2023 so if that diverter should not make that sound, then I say Viessmann has an issue with quality out of the gate. Anyway I will start experimenting with holding a pillow or something against each pipe when DHW starts or stops and see if additional bracing is needed - I know it's tedious.

As homeowners, we don't have access to many working boilers so we talk to each other to find out if things are ok or not and take appropriate measures.

BONUS: At the end of the video of DHW stops, you can see on the boiler screen S.154-1 pops up. I've started a new post to find out if it's normal.

https://youtube.com/shorts/9hHXjAqR1M4?si=6knj_Hpu6FeCsoru

https://youtube.com/shorts/cRbCb1Jh6sU?si=WNvcDDTE1oMT-j2r

erickyung

@JeremyfromMaine et al

The boiler is quiet but it does vibrate lightly. I am fortunate in a way that my contractor built the entire wall from basement floor to ceiling to secure all new equipment and new piping onto it. I can feel the vibration when I put my hand on the wall but it does not transfer much onto the ceiling hence the rest of the house. And the floor above has double joist throughout, just in that room so it absorbs pretty much all vibration.

I plan to put a couple of legs with rubber feet under the boiler at some point, just to secure the boiler even more.

For vibration and resonation, I hope you can try secure things a bit more.

As for those groans when the diverter value switches to DHW (to Heating for you), I hope someone (installers/contractors) can verify that they are normal. By the way, if you power the boiler off and on again, the startup makes those groans as well.