Propane Water Heater kicks on almost immediately?

mwc125

Greetings,

Bradford White 50 gallon power vent water heater - model number M4TW50T6FSX. Installed about 18 months ago.

Home to 4 people with propane used to fire the water heater and kitchen range. We heat with wood.

This water heater kicks on almost immediately after starting to draw hot water inside the house. I've never owned a water heater like this, so have no point of reference on what "normal" is. It seems like we are using more propane than in the past and I'm trying to run this down. Is this normal operation for such a water heater?

Thanks,
Mike

mattmia2

my similar water heater did, especially in winter when the incoming water temp was in the 30s.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, When you draw hot water, cold water enters the heater via a dip tube. This tube directs cold water to the bottom of the tank where it hits the thermostat pretty quickly. The colder the water, the faster the thermostat will respond. Faster draws like a tub will trigger the thermostat more quickly than slow draws, like a sink. That paint a thermal picture?

Yours, Larry

ps. It tells me the dip tube in your heater is good!

mwc125

Thanks for your insight folks! I am trying to run down what appears to be greater than normal usage of propane and this helps me eliminate the water heater from the the suspect list. I've got complete access to every gas line in my home, so after smelling, soaping and then using a "sniffer" to inspect each and every inch of piping not under ground, I was focusing on appliance gas usage. Next, I'll figure out how to put a gauge on one end of the gas line at the tank and plug the other to gain fidelity on potential leaks underground!

Be well,
Mike

Larry Weingarten

Hi @mwc125 , A few more thoughts. Try the sniffer around the tank itself, particularly the plumbing on top. I've had relief valves leak slowly there. Also, at any pressure reducer, check the vent as there could be a diaphragm leak. I like your idea of isolating portions of the gas line and putting air on it to see if, and how fast pressure drops.

Yours, Larry

rick in Alaska

If you do put a pressure test on it, make sure you disconnect all appliances first. If one of your shutoff valves does not work, the pressure can destroy your gas valve.
Rick

mattmia2

rick in Alaska said:

If you do put a pressure test on it, make sure you disconnect all appliances first. If one of your shutoff valves does not work, the pressure can destroy your gas valve.
Rick

Or if someone opens a valve without releasing the pressure first.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, @rick in Alaska is right! I did that once... only once

Yours, Larry

rick in Alaska

Hi, @rick in Alaska is right! I did that once... only once

Yeah, me too. I did learn that if you are going to test a line in a place that has more than one meter, to make sure they are all labeled accurately. Lucky for me, the owner took responsibility for it and it didn't cost me anything.

mwc125

Howdy guys! Appreciate all the dialog on this subject.

My perceived loss of propane is not a significant one, but it is more than we've used in the past without any changes in our appliance demand. This stuff drives me nuts! Have dialoged with my propane supplier and he too believes my consumption is "high" based on demand. My propane guy does offer pressure testing services, but that costs money and honestly, I've observed this process where the gas guy gives the line about 10 minutes under pressure before calling it "good". Prefer to do myself and get a better feel for what's happening.

Larry, I did employ the sniffer around the fittings on the tank without detecting a leak. That said, I'll do it again and focus on the pressure relief valve as you advised.

I intend to pressure test the line from the tank to the house. Will disconnect union to house and remove the pressure regulator before capping that end with a gauge. Then, will disconnect line from tank and somehow pressurize the line. Propane runs at very low pressure, so I was thinking maybe 10 to 20 PSI should be adequate? While I'm mechanically adept, I've never done this and could use some advice on what hardware, gauge, and whatnot I should employ in this task. Some specific questions...

What type of gauge to hook up?
Adapters for pressurizing the line?
What pressure should I test the line?
How much time should pass before calling the line "good"?

I'll go outside and get some photos of the tank to line connections and where it comes from the ground to better illuminate my situation. Look for those in a bit.

Thanks!
Mike

Larry Weingarten

Hi @mwc125 , Look for a gas test gauge something like this:
In my area, inspectors like to see 15 psi. Personally I like to leave the gauge in place at least an hour, during a time of day that the ambient temperature doesn't change much. Requirements vary depending on where you are. AND make sure to follow @rick in Alaska 's instruction on how to not blow up gas valves!

Yours, Larry

mwc125

Ordered this one.

https://www.amazon.com/Winters-Pressure-Polycarbonate-Accuracy-Connection/dp/B0087UDOEY/ref=sr_1_3?crid=G5NFJ5WSTA2O&keywords=winters+gauge+propane+test&qid=1645473732&sprefix=winters+guage+propane+test,aps,193&sr=8-3

mwc125

Howdy again folks!

I'm slow, but I finally got around to doing some work on my outdoor propane gas supply lines and I owe you guys an update.

What got me going again? I needed to add a tee to tap into the propane supply on the house side of the regulator. This will supply our propane generator when/if we lose power again. We could have easily lost half a beef when the power went out last year and we don't want to risk that again. My RV/Generator guy suggested the tee location based on a valve and flexible propane line he is making for this application. While I was at it, I installed a valve that enables me to control gas to the old farm house. With all the unions and whatnot disconnected, I followed your advice above and tested pressure in my buried propane lines. During this I removed the regulator going into the house and reinstalled.

I capped one end of the line (tank side), and installed the gauge as pictured. Set in 15 PSI of air and left it alone for about 1.5 hours. No leaks! Then, I did the same thing on the outbuilding run and came up with the same result.

When I got everything together and checked for leaks, I opened the valves and fired up the water heater in the house. It sounded especially "snorty" when it fired up, but settled down to a normal roar. Then, I went to the kitchen range and tried the burners. Now, I rarely look at the top of the stove for cooking. My job with the stove is primarily cleaning. The burners fired up after a bit (had to burp out the air) and initially displayed some surging without my control input. Then the settled down to more consistent flames. The overall color of the flame is blue, but there are flashes of yellow that appear once in a while. To me, it seems the burners display a very slight "surging" at all settings.

Next, I went to the outbuilding and fired up the water heater there. It seemed normal. Please note the gas was installed to this building in 2017, so has a newer regulator there. Oh, and I noticed a bit of soot on the outbuilding's water heater vent. That water heater is lightly used.

The regulators, both on the tank and at house are at least 15 years old.

New questions for you:

Could the "surging" and intermittent yellow flames in the primary house be a sign of a regulator going bad? Same for the tiny bit of soot on the other building's water heater?

Could my perceived increased propane consumption be attributable to a regulator problem?

I'm just a bit particular with mechanical devices. I'm especially cautious with gas.

I'm waiting on a call back from my propane supplier to discuss with him. In the meantime, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Feel free to giggle at my plumbing in the attached photos. This setup was originally installed by a previous gas supplier and I had to keep the overall crooked orientation of the service into the house.

Be well,
Mike

pecmsg

Is Leak Lock approved for use with gas?

Something about drying up over time.

mwc125

According to the package, it is appropriate for propane and many other gasses. My retired contractor friend raves about this stuff.

pecmsg

mwc125 said:

According to the package, it is appropriate for propane and many other gasses. My retired contractor friend raves about this stuff.

I stopped using it 10 or 15 years ago. Replaced with Block for pipe fittings, nylog for refrigeration. 

EdTheHeaterMan

2 underground lines? Both from the tank? Or does one go to another building or swimming pool?

mwc125

EdTheHeaterMan said:

2 underground lines? Both from the tank? Or does one go to another building or swimming pool?

Line you are pointing to on the right goes to the tank. The line to the left was added years later to run some limited heating in an outbuilding.

mwc125

To close this post out, I discussed situation with my propane supplier and I replaced the regulators. The legacy regulators were 17 and 18 years old and the industry recommends replacing after 15 years. It was an easy job, especially at the tank end. Regulator on the house was a bit more difficult as it is dimensionally smaller than the old regulator. Good thing I have plenty of spare fittings and nipples in a box!

So, did anything with what I perceive as "pulsing flames " on the kitchen range change? Nope, not a bit! I probably wasted 100 bucks and time on this, but now I know I've got regulators that should last me until I'm too old to turn wrenches.

Thanks again for all your help.

Robert_25

When you observed the "pulsing flames" on the burners were you also using the oven?

It is not uncommon to see occasional yellow/orange flames after doing some work on the system.

mwc125

Robert_25 said:

When you observed the "pulsing flames" on the burners were you also using the oven?

It is not uncommon to see occasional yellow/orange flames after doing some work on the system.

No, just each of the 5 burners on the stove top. Of course, it could be caused by the regulator on the appliance itself and now I've replaced the two outdoor regulators with no improvement, I'll have to say it must be the stove regulator!

kcopp

How is your WH piped?
Is there a mix valve on it now? What temperature is the thermostat set to?
If the tank has a mix valve and the temp in tank is set to 140F vs the old tank that may have just been set to 120F that right there would prob be your usage increase. Standby losses.