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At the end of my rope !! Need help

cmurra6745
cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
in Domestic Hot Water
Hello I posted this is gas heating forum but it’s related to DHW issue.

so I had work done on my combo boiler . Triangle tube prestige excellence model PTE110

i had it cleaned and serviced , t and p valve replaced , thermostat replaced and 3 way mixing valve cartridge replaced as well as DHW expansion tank all due to leaking past the t and p valve . 

Prior to the work I never had an issue with running out of hot water . Now whenever I run a hot shower or sink ect the domestic hot water temp decreases depending on flow either rapidly or slowly. When showering 8-10 min . The DHW call happens and water starts heating after about 2 min of showering . Only issue is the temp does not increase fast enough to keep up with demand so the DHW temp eventually gets to 68 degrees and isint able to reheat until I turn off the flow and then gradually heats back up and reached 150 degrees in domestic temp after about 8 min . 

I am assuming it’s related to a heat issue as in not able to hear fast enough. because flow never increased it’s always been the same and now I need help!! I want my unlimited hot water back 

could this be the heat exchanger ? I have a warranty on it . 

PLEASE HELP!!

Comments

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,564
    Hi, Just to be clear on what's wrong, a bit of troubleshooting might help. So some questions. Is cold water leaking into the hot side? This could happen through a single lever valve, hot water recirculation line, or a mixing valve. You could do a crossover test. This is just shutting off the cold supply the the heater and opening a hot tap. You should get no flow. Cold supply to the mixing valve might need to be shut for this test. Another test is to run the shower and just feel pipes with your hand. Is the cold supply to the mixer feeding water when it shouldn't be?
    I'm trying to learn if the problem is out in the plumbing before pointing a finger at the new equipment. Of the work done to equipment, the mixing valve cartridge replacement seems most suspect. The test of simply feeling the cold supply to it could tell you if it's feeding in cold when it shouldn't.

    Yours, Larry
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,290
    I would have them back I suspect the mixing valve as well
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,112
    Has the heat exchanger been delimed?  In hard water areas that may need to be done every few years. Measure in and out temperatures on the domestic side of the Hx

    The boiler should be running high temperature  typically 180F during a DHW call, did any settings get changed?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,579
    It could be a compromised Dip tube on the waterheater.
    It could also be a Bad/Contaminated Mixing valve or crossover in one of your fixtures.
    Although it will not hurt to descale the waterheater i do not think that it is related to scale build up on the HX since you did not have any hot water issues prior to the TP,3 way,expansion tank change out.
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Larry Weingarten said:
    Hi, Just to be clear on what's wrong, a bit of troubleshooting might help. So some questions. Is cold water leaking into the hot side? This could happen through a single lever valve, hot water recirculation line, or a mixing valve. You could do a crossover test. This is just shutting off the cold supply the the heater and opening a hot tap. You should get no flow. Cold supply to the mixing valve might need to be shut for this test. Another test is to run the shower and just feel pipes with your hand. Is the cold supply to the mixer feeding water when it shouldn't be? I'm trying to learn if the problem is out in the plumbing before pointing a finger at the new equipment. Of the work done to equipment, the mixing valve cartridge replacement seems most suspect. The test of simply feeling the cold supply to it could tell you if it's feeding in cold when it shouldn't. Yours, Larry
    Would main supply with the back flow preventer be the cold water I need to turn off ? There are a few valves to turn off here maybe I can send a pic of setup
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    I was under the impression wall mount combi systems didn’t have a dip tube I don’t see one on the parts list
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37

    hot_rod said:
    Has the heat exchanger been delimed?  In hard water areas that may need to be done every few years. Measure in and out temperatures on the domestic side of the Hx

    The boiler should be running high temperature  typically 180F during a DHW call, did any settings get changed?
    It does run about 180 when heating DHW and not sure plumber reset to factory to try and fix but it didn’t 
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    EBEBRATT-Ed said:
    I would have them back I suspect the mixing valve as well
    Yea I might have someone else back they weren’t to great
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    edited February 2022

  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    edited February 2022
    @Larry Weingarten I found it the turn off pre expansion tank. Yes when I turn that off no flow comes from hot side of faucet 
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    edited February 2022
    @Larry Weingarten the cold supply line is pretty cold feeding into top of tank But I don’t feel a flow but the line def got cold as I started to run my hot shower then domestic started to drop and call came on and went from 150 to 102 domestic temp in like 4 min
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Which line would be the mixer cold side ? I def think it’s getting cold when it shouldn’t be but doesn’t it feed water into system to be reheated ? 
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,564
    edited February 2022
    Hi, The ports on that mixing valve are labeled A, B and AB. I see that B comes from the top of the tank (hot) and AB should be the mixed water, so that leaves A as the cold supply. (I'm guessing some here as the valves I've worked with usually have arrows :p ) So, is the line under the mixer (A) getting cold when you run the not very warm shower? If so, I'd focus on getting it set correctly.

    Yours, Larry

    Ps. It would be nice to have a shut off on the cold supply to the mixer. With that, it would be a simple test to check the mixing valve operation by just closing the valve and seeing if you get hot water.
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    edited February 2022
    Larry Weingarten said:
    Hi, The ports on that mixing valve are labeled A, B and AB. I see that B comes from the top of the tank (hot) and AB should be the mixed water, so that leaves A as the cold supply. (I'm guessing some here as the valves I've worked with usually have arrows :p ) So, is the line under the mixer (A) getting cold when you run the not very warm shower? If so, I'd focus on getting it set correctly. Yours, Larry Ps. It would be nice to have a shut off on the cold supply to the mixer. With that, it would be a simple test to check the mixing valve operation by just closing the valve and seeing if you get hot water.
    The a side was Luke warm but didn’t get cold at all I always do get hot water . It just runs out as the domestic temp drops rapidly and doesn’t stay elevated even when boiler is reheating and it reached 186 degrees yet the water keeps getting colder . And this is on all faucets and showers then after I turn off whatever is drawing the water it starts to go back up slowly and you can hear water exchanging in tank 
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,579
    edited February 2022
    cmurra6745 said:

    I was under the impression wall mount combi systems didn’t have a dip tube I don’t see one on the parts list


    It does have a dip tube!
    Both hot and cold water enter from the top into the tank !
    How is the cold water not going to short cycle back to the hot water outlet if it did not have one?
    A couple years ago we actually removed the waterheater from one of these and installed a Indirect instead.
    I have found that not all parts such as Gaskets for exhaust or Gaskets to the HX are listed in TT parts list..
    You probably should call Triangle Tube in NJ and ask them . (856) 228-8881
    Have your model and serial number ready!
    cmurra6745
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Derheatmeister said:
    I was under the impression wall mount combi systems didn’t have a dip tube I don’t see one on the parts list
    It does have a dip tube! Both hot and cold water enter from the top into the tank ! How is the cold water not going to short cycle back to the hot water outlet if it did not have one? A couple years ago we actually removed the waterheater from one of these and installed a Indirect instead. I have found that not all parts such as Gaskets for exhaust or Gaskets to the HX are listed in TT parts list.. You probably should call Triangle Tube in NJ and ask them . (856) 228-8881 Have your model and serial number ready!
    Thank you I will give them a ring !! 
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    edited February 2022
    Larry Weingarten said:

    Hi, The ports on that mixing valve are labeled A, B and AB. I see that B comes from the top of the tank (hot) and AB should be the mixed water, so that leaves A as the cold supply. (I'm guessing some here as the valves I've worked with usually have arrows :p ) So, is the line under the mixer (A) getting cold when you run the not very warm shower? If so, I'd focus on getting it set correctly.

    Yours, Larry

    Ps. It would be nice to have a shut off on the cold supply to the mixer. With that, it would be a simple test to check the mixing valve operation by just closing the valve and seeing if you get hot water.

    So i got a call into TT . not very helpful over the phone but i did get part # for dip tube . gentleman aslo said to look at the diverter valve .. is diverted valve the same as the A B AB mixing valve? if so ive had those internals replaced so they should be ok .

    part number he gave me for dip tube was P3WKITDT01 which lists PE110 as an option but my model number is PTE 110

  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    here is a pic of a similar setup from top of my tank that looks like it may be the right part

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/PRESTIGE MAX.pdf
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    so i got confirmation that part number is correct...

    do i need to drain tank to replace tube?
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 894
    I wouldn't think draining the tank is necessary. Just relieve the pressure from the DHW tank by shutting off the cold domestic incoming and then opening the TP relief valve for the TANK. It would be handy to also have and shut off a valve on the HOT side to hold water coming back from the house to the tank.
    Larry Weingartencmurra6745Derheatmeister
  • Shane_2
    Shane_2 Member Posts: 194
    edited February 2022
    Still sounds to me from your description of the problem, that your issue is going to be with the three way valve.

    You say the "internals" were replaced. Were both the valve actuator (grey box) and the valve body (brass) both replaced? Part number PSRKIT57 (Valve actuator) and part number PEVLV01 (valve body)
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Shane_2 said:
    Still sounds to me from your description of the problem, that your issue is going to be with the three way valve. You say the "internals" were replaced. Were both the valve actuator (grey box) and the valve body (brass) both replaced? Part number PSRKIT57 (Valve actuator) and part number PEVLV01 (valve body)
    No the part replaced was the mixing valve cartridge which was stuck 
  • Shane_2
    Shane_2 Member Posts: 194
    cmurra6745 said:


    Shane_2 said:

    Still sounds to me from your description of the problem, that your issue is going to be with the three way valve.

    You say the "internals" were replaced. Were both the valve actuator (grey box) and the valve body (brass) both replaced? Part number PSRKIT57 (Valve actuator) and part number PEVLV01 (valve body)

    No the part replaced was the mixing valve cartridge which was stuck 

    In your picture above of the inside of your combi boiler. To the left of the black pump is a brass tee with A,B, and AB letters on it. That is your 3-way valve body(mixing valve) (PEVLV01). To the left of that is a grey and black box (Valve actuator) (PSRKT57). Were either or both of those parts replaced?

    I think your problem is there
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Shane_2 said:
    Shane_2 said:
    Still sounds to me from your description of the problem, that your issue is going to be with the three way valve. You say the "internals" were replaced. Were both the valve actuator (grey box) and the valve body (brass) both replaced? Part number PSRKIT57 (Valve actuator) and part number PEVLV01 (valve body)
    No the part replaced was the mixing valve cartridge which was stuck 
    In your picture above of the inside of your combi boiler. To the left of the black pump is a brass tee with A,B, and AB letters on it. That is your 3-way valve body(mixing valve) (PEVLV01). To the left of that is a grey and black box (Valve actuator) (PSRKT57). Were either or both of those parts replaced? I think your problem is there
    No just the mixing valve cartridge which I assume is inside the body?
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    edited February 2022
    This part which is internal

    part number PEVLV02


  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Shane_2 said:
    Still sounds to me from your description of the problem, that your issue is going to be with the three way valve. You say the "internals" were replaced. Were both the valve actuator (grey box) and the valve body (brass) both replaced? Part number PSRKIT57 (Valve actuator) and part number PEVLV01 (valve body)
    I would think that if that was issue the residential temp would stay up and just feed cold but the residential temp drops to 68 and that temp reading is in tank mixture 
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Also actuator moves as it should in and out 
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,579
    Again... As stated before we had a similar situation with the same Triangle tube...
    >>>>>>>>THE TUBE WAS BROKE... ;):(:# <<<<<<<
    However, because the owner was AirBBn the home we got rid of the Mini waterheater and installed a Indirect from Lochinvar for a better recovery/capacity..
    BTW....Changing the diptube should not take to long!
    1. Turn off water.... Max.1minute
    2. Reduce water pressure.... Max.3 minutes
    3. Cut cold water feed line to water heater ....Max.30seconds
    4. Undo FIP connection to of waterheater tank.. Max. 2 minutes
    5. Pull old Dip tube out...Max. 30 seconds ( If tube is in tank leave it)
    6. Put new tube into waterheater...30 seconds
    7. Tape and install the FIP 2 minutes
    8. If You are a pro you will use a 3/4"Pro Press slip coupling. Pressing Max. 1 minute.If you are a home owner... Sharkbite 30 seconds
    9. Repressurize the system,Check for leaks...2 minutes
    10. Enjoy your hot water !

    If a tech take longer than a hour for this job which includes cleaning up,putting tools/materials away and the Paperwork he should try a different Profession.
    Good luck..
    cmurra6745
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Derheatmeister said:
    Again... As stated before we had a similar situation with the same Triangle tube... >>>>>>>>THE TUBE WAS BROKE... ;):(:# <<<<<<< However, because the owner was AirBBn the home we got rid of the Mini waterheater and installed a Indirect from Lochinvar for a better recovery/capacity.. BTW....Changing the diptube should not take to long! 1. Turn off water.... Max.1minute 2. Reduce water pressure.... Max.3 minutes 3. Cut cold water feed line to water heater ....Max.30seconds 4. Undo FIP connection to of waterheater tank.. Max. 2 minutes 5. Pull old Dip tube out...Max. 30 seconds ( If tube is in tank leave it) 6. Put new tube into waterheater...30 seconds 7. Tape and install the FIP 2 minutes 8. If You are a pro you will use a 3/4"Pro Press slip coupling. Pressing Max. 1 minute.If you are a home owner... Sharkbite 30 seconds 9. Repressurize the system,Check for leaks...2 minutes 10. Enjoy your hot water ! If a tech take longer than a hour for this job which includes cleaning up,putting tools/materials away and the Paperwork he should try a different Profession. Good luck..

    Derheatmeister said:
    Again... As stated before we had a similar situation with the same Triangle tube... >>>>>>>>THE TUBE WAS BROKE... ;):(:# <<<<<<< However, because the owner was AirBBn the home we got rid of the Mini waterheater and installed a Indirect from Lochinvar for a better recovery/capacity.. BTW....Changing the diptube should not take to long! 1. Turn off water.... Max.1minute 2. Reduce water pressure.... Max.3 minutes 3. Cut cold water feed line to water heater ....Max.30seconds 4. Undo FIP connection to of waterheater tank.. Max. 2 minutes 5. Pull old Dip tube out...Max. 30 seconds ( If tube is in tank leave it) 6. Put new tube into waterheater...30 seconds 7. Tape and install the FIP 2 minutes 8. If You are a pro you will use a 3/4"Pro Press slip coupling. Pressing Max. 1 minute.If you are a home owner... Sharkbite 30 seconds 9. Repressurize the system,Check for leaks...2 minutes 10. Enjoy your hot water ! If a tech take longer than a hour for this job which includes cleaning up,putting tools/materials away and the Paperwork he should try a different Profession. Good luck..

    Def gonna have a professional do it . I don’t trust myself haha thanks so much 
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Derheatmeister said:
    Again... As stated before we had a similar situation with the same Triangle tube... >>>>>>>>THE TUBE WAS BROKE... ;):(:# <<<<<<< However, because the owner was AirBBn the home we got rid of the Mini waterheater and installed a Indirect from Lochinvar for a better recovery/capacity.. BTW....Changing the diptube should not take to long! 1. Turn off water.... Max.1minute 2. Reduce water pressure.... Max.3 minutes 3. Cut cold water feed line to water heater ....Max.30seconds 4. Undo FIP connection to of waterheater tank.. Max. 2 minutes 5. Pull old Dip tube out...Max. 30 seconds ( If tube is in tank leave it) 6. Put new tube into waterheater...30 seconds 7. Tape and install the FIP 2 minutes 8. If You are a pro you will use a 3/4"Pro Press slip coupling. Pressing Max. 1 minute.If you are a home owner... Sharkbite 30 seconds 9. Repressurize the system,Check for leaks...2 minutes 10. Enjoy your hot water ! If a tech take longer than a hour for this job which includes cleaning up,putting tools/materials away and the Paperwork he should try a different Profession. Good luck..
    Wasn't dip tube old one was perfect ... now onto replacing heat exchanger 
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,611
    Heat exchangers have no mechanical parts. They can leak but cannot really break.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Zman said:
    Heat exchangers have no mechanical parts. They can leak but cannot really break.
    Sorry I meant tank .. tank was bad apparently and clogged with so much sediment got it replaced under warranty
  • cmurra6745
    cmurra6745 Member Posts: 37
    Nope that didn't fix it either ... 

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