SafGard for CycleGard Problem

PatrickNorth

This summer I bought a SafGard (400) to replace my aggravating CycleGard 400. Never got to swap it out until well into the heating season and I remembered why I bought the darn thing.
It's an older boiler so I did not remove the probe- didn't want to open a can of worms if that proved troublesome- I just swapped out the electronics. Nothing. No light, wouldn't let the burner run, nothing. So I put the old CycleGard back and am living with it for now.
Did I NEED to replace the probe for the new unit to function? Any quick way to test the new unit with a multimeter?
These things seem pretty sturdy/solid state so I was skeptical of a bad unit.
The wiring is very basic- double and triple checked it and it seemed fine.
Thoughts?
Thanks!
Patrick

Hap_Hazzard

Should work with the same probe. Could be a defective Safgard. First, make sure they sent the right voltage. I once ordered a CycleGard CG400 and got a CG450 in a CG400 box. The cover on the unit even said CG400, but the electronics and valve were 120v.

PatrickNorth

Wow- wonder how long it took you to discover that snafu!
Just checked- the circuit board says it's a 400, so it's not that.
Thanks,
Patrick

Hap_Hazzard

PatrickNorth said:

Wow- wonder how long it took you to discover that snafu!
Just checked- the circuit board says it's a 400, so it's not that.
Thanks,
Patrick

Just long enough to miss the return window, but fortunately they can be converted.

It just doesn't pay to buy stuff if you're not going to install it immediately.

ethicalpaul

The Cyclegard is the safest LWCO in my opinion. Instead of getting annoyed, think about how it's checking your water level carefully every x minutes to make sure your boiler isn't going to crack or burn up and be happy!

For the safgard, you can try to test it on the bench...at the very least the lights should light

JUGHNE

I just changed out a Cyclegard for Safegard.
No problems same wiring, used the existing probe as it was the same.

The Cyclegard was in constant countdown cycle as long as the power was on.

Boiler might fire near the end of the countdown, run a few minutes and than shut down for the water level check.
This would shut off all power to the system including tstat.
The vent damper would remain open.
When it come back on the tstat would have a "wait" period.
Cyclegard starts new count down in the meantime.
Boiler fires then will be off for cyclegard check again.
Eventually the boiler gets up to 1.5 PSI and shuts down on p-trol.
Still countdown cycle.
Pressure drops to .5 and refires.
Cyclegard stops to check again....tstat wait time again.
Add in this for vent damper to close and then reopen for firing


Then if off with low boiler pressure air vents start to suck air.
When finally lighting then vents are venting air, 12.45 cubic feet of air to vents.

So now stays firing until p-trol cuts out or tstat satisfied.

SteamingatMohawk

For the last 20+ years as I have learned about steam heat, I never noticed whether the damper closes on a water level check. I used to have the Honeywell round tstat, so I don't think that had a wait period.

The current Cyclegard has a built in optional feature to start the countdown when the boiler comes on vs. permanently doing the countdown as long as there is power.

I'll have to check it out.

Here's the instructions,

https://hydrolevel.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/CG400-Instructions-web.pdf

Personally I prefer the level check, it keeps boiler pressure lower by doing the 90 second check.

Hap_Hazzard

SteamingatMohawk said:

For the last 20+ years as I have learned about steam heat, I never noticed whether the damper closes on a water level check.

It does on mine. Mine's a 24v model (CG400). I'm not sure about the 120v ones. I believe they shut down the whole shebang, so I don't think the damper would close. I believe @ethicalpaul has one on his Peerless, so maybe he can enlighten us.

SteamingatMohawk

See you never know what you're going to learn reading these discussions. What thermostat do you have?

I replaced my round one with the Honeywell wireless wifi thermostat and the gateway so I can us my phone to control the system, since I don't live in the house. I don't know how the CycleGard would interact with that thermostat.

SteamingatMohawk

The CG450 does have some connections to the thermostat, but its for a boiler with a tankless coil.

https://hydrolevel.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/CG450-CGT450-Instructions-web.pdf

Hap_Hazzard

SteamingatMohawk said:

What thermostat do you have?

The round Honeywell with the mercury switch and the heat anticipator. It's not the most precise thing in the world, but I love it.

Hap_Hazzard

SteamingatMohawk said:

The CG450 does have some connections to the thermostat, but its for a boiler with a tankless coil.

https://hydrolevel.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/CG450-CGT450-Instructions-web.pdf

From what I remember, that looks just like the wiring for the CG400, but I thought I remembered @ethicalpaul saying the one that came installed on his boiler just cut the AC power to the boiler. I assume the CycleGard must be on its own circuit.

PatrickNorth

What bench test can I perform to determine whether the SafGard I got is a dud?

Thanks,
Patrick

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

The Cyclegard is the safest LWCO in my opinion. Instead of getting annoyed, think about how it's checking your water level carefully every x minutes to make sure your boiler isn't going to crack or burn up and be happy!

For the safgard, you can try to test it on the bench...at the very least the lights should light

ChrisJ

PatrickNorth said:

What bench test can I perform to determine whether the SafGard I got is a dud?

Thanks,
Patrick

If yours is a 24VAC unit, supply it with 24VAC and it should power up.

ethicalpaul

Hap_Hazzard said:

SteamingatMohawk said:

For the last 20+ years as I have learned about steam heat, I never noticed whether the damper closes on a water level check.

It does on mine. Mine's a 24v model (CG400). I'm not sure about the 120v ones. I believe they shut down the whole shebang, so I don't think the damper would close. I believe @ethicalpaul has one on his Peerless, so maybe he can enlighten us.

On the Peerless 63 (and I assume 64), they are the 120v units and they are wired to kill all other power to the boiler when they trigger (either due to a test or due to a low water condition).

So they leave the damper open.

I suppose if it were wired to interrupt the call for heat, then the damper would close during the test, but it's such a short duration of time I'd rather not have the extra cycle of the damper anyway.

If the call for heat is satisfied during the 60 or 90 second test (depending on model) then the damper closes after the end of the test.

The manuals from Peerless are very nice and show the complete wiring diagram where this can be seen.

Hap_Hazzard

ethicalpaul said:

I supposed if it were wired to interrupt the call for heat, then the damper would close during the test, but it's such a short duration of time I'd rather not have the extra cycle of the damper anyway.

Yeah, I could do without the extra wear and tear on my vent damper is. There must be a way to wire it so it would just kill the burners, but I haven't figured that out yet.

SteamingatMohawk

My 24v CycleGard400 (probe LWCO) does shut the damper during the intermittent level test. I watched it today.

One probably trivial question is, " What happens to the draft when the flame is off during the level test if the damper stays open?" Would it draw "cold" air from the bottom, since there is no fire vs. essentially stopping the draft in the case like mine. Interesting. As a side question what does the spill switch see in each case?

JUGHNE

Apparently the 24 volt version breaks the 24 vac control circuit just like the p-trol would. So the vent damper would close.

The 120 volt one I replaced will kill the complete 120 volt power. Damper stayed open.

With no fire and damper the air would draft up the flue cooling the CI mass.

I believe it takes a lot to open the spill switch.

SteamingatMohawk

@JUGHNE said, I believe it takes a lot to open the spill switch.

I can't imagine with the damper shut for only 90 seconds that combustion gas, if any, flowing out past the spill switch could be hot enough (375F if I remember correctly) to trip it.


The 400 (24v) doesn't have thermostat connections, but the 450 (120v) does in the tankless coil version. Maybe it has to do with the tankless version. Can anyone explain how it works?