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Peerless 63-03L - 1 or 2 Risers???

AdmiralYoda
AdmiralYoda Member Posts: 368
I think we all know that two is better than one and larger is better than smaller. And an oversized header is even better yet. This all slows down the steam velocity and helps the water drop out to create dry steam.

I am anticipating a future problem dealing with my local inspectors for when I get around to replacing my oversized boiler with a Peerless 63-03L.

The manual tells you to use a single 2" riser and a 2" header even though the 63-03L has two 3" tappings on the boiler. It doesn't even have any verbiage about using both tappings, increasing the pipe size, or using a drop header.

As @ethicalpaul can confirm....if it isn't exactly how the manual says, the inspector can get cranky even if what was done is superior to the way the manual states.

I'd prefer to use two 2.5" risers going into a 3" drop header....because why not? It needs to be re-piped anyways, might as well do it the best way possible.

Anyone run into problems with inspectors that get upset about something like this? Think they know enough to recognize that oversized risers and an even larger drop header is superior?

Comments

  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,263
    After reading of Paul's inspector questioning his drop headers, I was anticipating my state boiler inspector perhaps having the same concern for drop headers.

    (I used two 2" x 24" risers dropped into a 3" header, the drops made line up very easy for connecting to the header. The swivel factor does this.)

    PB had no drawing showing drop headers, so I had a couple of other manufactures
    drawings available to show that is was accepted practice. He never questioned them.

    However he did wonder why one boiler had a reducer right at the vent damper on the flue pipe.
    There is a single addendum page along with the reducer fitting showing PB approving the reduction.
    This is not in the I&O book.
    So don't lose the page if you reduce the flue pipe.

    If you are required to have King valves on the supply risers then realize that 2 1/2" valves are expensive compared to 2".
    ethicalpaul
  • AdmiralYoda
    AdmiralYoda Member Posts: 368
    Wow you weren't kidding....whether it be a ball valve or a gate valve rated for steam, 2.5" is about 2-2.5x the cost of 2". Looks like the 2.5" fittings are 2x the cost also.

    At the end of the day we are talking about an extra $250 or so using 2.5" vs 2.0" but still might be worth it.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,263
    What I described above was used for both 63-4L and 63-5L sizes.
    Could have used a single 3" riser.

    I used 3" headers versus 2.5 to keep the inventory down as I needed the 3" fittings and nipples elsewhere on the project. Everything was done using purchased nipples.

    2.5" is a bit of an odd duck.
    Then add in a couple of 2.5" unions for the risers versus 2".
    There might not have been a 3 x 2.5 tee or 90 available at the time, then would have needed bushings on full size 3" ftgs.

    You could take the money saved with the 2" and put it towards insulation or such.
    SuperTech
  • Jon_blaney
    Jon_blaney Member Posts: 172
    Why not get your piping information together and go to his office and ask. Personal, one on one contact will get you the best result.
    Corktownmattmia2Hap_Hazzard
  • AdmiralYoda
    AdmiralYoda Member Posts: 368
    @Jon_blaney Very true! I won't be doing the install or pulling the permits, it will be some reputable gentlemen from Rhode Island :)

    Ultimately it will be them who decide what pipe sizes to use as I trust their judgement over mine as I tend to be Captain Overkill on everything. They do state that they like to use oversized drop headers on every job though.

    I'm more curious how others experience has been dealing with inspectors when you went "above and beyond" the installation manual.
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 275
    edited January 14
    1, 1 1/4, 1 1/2, and 2 are threaded eleven and one half threads per inch. 2 1/2 and up are threaded eight threads per inch. Why is this important? Larger threaders do not use individual dies for each size. They use four or five cutters that are moved in and out to accommodate different diameter pipe. Therefore, there is a break between 2 and 2 1/2. Smaller threaders stop at 2. Larger threaders start at 2 1/2.
    Hardware stores and Home Depot can cut and thread up to 2. There are many manual threaders on the used market that will thread up to 2 (elbow grease not included). Try finding a manual threader for 2 1/2 and up. I have one. I found it at an estate sale of a hoarder on the last day and bought it for scrap value. I've been to over a thousand garage sales, estate sales and swap meets. Never seen another.
  • cross_skier
    cross_skier Member Posts: 147
    eBay helped me with a Toledo threader for 3" pipes.  It even came with dies for ,4".

    A neighbor on a budget got all of his 3" and 2-1/2" fittings off eBay, took him about a year.  It was definitely a mismatch of brands but he insulated everything.  He thinks he saved a lot.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,367
    My inspector also really freaked out when he saw the flue reduction. When I told him it came that way from the factory he just about called me a liar to my face :sweat_smile:

    I had the paper and when I showed it to him he was honestly shocked. Finally after looking at it for a few seconds he said "you got me here. I've never seen this before". I of course didn't gloat.
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,263
    edited January 16




    But there are 3 boilers in this project.
    Only 1 1/4" and smaller were cut and threaded pipe.
    4" was welded 1/2 nipples onto pipes.

    All other piping was nipples, up to 12" long.
    Not that many couplings used.


    Note: as I was just there I counted 3 3" couplings in the headers.
    Maybe 3 1 1/4" couplings, a few 1"-3/4"-1/2" couplings.
    (these were to use up existing black pipe on site)
    Some reducing couplings and 2 existing 4" flanges.
    WMno57cross_skiermattmia2SuperTech
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 4,321
    I think i'd be inclined to look for a metal lathe if I was going to try to tread 2.5" and up at home
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,263
    I am 150-200 miles away from anyplace that even has fittings over 2", let alone the ability to thread anything bigger.
    So one can buy a lot of fittings and nipples before pursuing that source.
    (Also black pipe prices seem to have tripled)

    Supply house was great for ordering and maybe 4-5 days delivery.
    Plus they take returns.

    With planning the nipple route worked out well.

    With advice from this wall, I struck the compromise of using import materials above the water line and USA made below the water line.
    Only a couple of defective fittings and one was an Anvil tee.

    I got a 21 foot length of PE 4" SCH 40 Black Pipe at pre-covied/shortages prices.
    Had the local gas welder build me lengths of 4" using half of 4" nipples for the ends.
    Only used about 1/2 of the 21', let the local gas company have the other half for loaning me their 6" rigid pipe vice for the duration....my whole summer.

    I am old and also somewhat lazy, so spend a lot of time looking for the easy route for all of this. (Maybe work smarter...not harder).
    ethicalpaulSuperTech
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,367
    To answer your original question, that boiler definitely only needs a single 2” supply. I’ve tested it 6 ways from Sunday.
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 800
    A single 3 inch tapping would give you an exit velocity of only 10.7 ft/sec. The maximum velocity for water to fall back against steam is 29 ft/sec. Even a single 2 inch is only 23.5 ft/sec. Absolutely no need to 2 risers. A 21/2 would give you 16.5 ft/sec
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    ethicalpaul
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,618
    If you use one 3" x 24"+ riser, the water will never get to the header, except for a little condensation, and the condensation forms on the walls of the pipes, so it never gets entrained and doesn't need to be separated.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • cross_skier
    cross_skier Member Posts: 147
    Dan wrote use all the supply tappings with full size fittings.  I think you guys have found an exception.

    By using common castings across all 64 series boilers we need @ethicalpaul to do the experiments or @The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro) to do the physics!
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 2,839
    edited January 15
    All boilers have two tappings. That's what end sections do. They have all the tappings every time regardless of how many midsections there are or aren't.
    With all due respect, and I mean that, I'll never understand the obsession with oversizing headers, insisting on drop headers, and exceeding the factory tested and confirmed installation directives. I guess it's just fun and makes for good pictures. Enjoy!
    Until someone can tell me how to test for moisture content in steam, I'm going to trust that the engineers at the manufacturer have done their due diligence in figuring something as simple as pipe diameters on their boilers' headers.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, Master Plumber for Consulting Work
    Or for plumbing in NYC or in NJ.

    Or take his class.
    ethicalpaul
  • cross_skier
    cross_skier Member Posts: 147
    Well I'm pretty new here but 25 years ago the key learnings were dry steam from low velocities along with a lot of main venting and proper pipe pitch made for a happy, economical one-pipe system.  The slower the velocities the better, the more venting the better.  Antlers of vents, venting the middle of really long mains,  insulation, dropped headers were starting to get a lot of attention.

    Now it seems the engineers and a few pros are smarter and can do a better job of quantifying what is necessary without wasting a lot of money.  Maybe that is a good thing.
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,618
    JohnNY said:

    All boilers have two tappings. That's what end sections do.

    Until the SteamMax came along.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 800
    I'm with you, John. In my opine, the money spent on huge piping and more piping could go into things like pipe insulation, main vents, adjustable radiator vents, radiator orifices or more efficient power burners with outdoor reset controls. I like to exceed manufacturer's minimums by some margins (like drop headers which also make installation easier), but I keep an eye on the ROI for such things.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    JohnNYethicalpaul
  • cross_skier
    cross_skier Member Posts: 147
    Right after I did my install drop headers became really popular.  I had a small case of drop header envy.

    The quote, use every output tapping with full size fittings came from @DanHolohan from an article he wrote probably the 1980's.  I photocopied all his steam articles as I just brought a good size house with a poorly running steam system.  I was pretty worried.  Forced air wasn't a good option for a historic house based on a neighbor's experience.   I deliberately chose the Peerless because it had two good size tappings, good water volume and the widest sections available, key area of focus I learned from Dan.  @Steamhead was a huge influence in many areas including venting.  Grateful for both of them.

    I had two pros over, both were not impressive.  One was so bad I remember the realtor saying, "you aren't going to hire him, are you?"  One supply house would not work with me, others had no issues.  
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,622
    Thanks, @cross_skier. I’m glad I was able to help. 
    Retired and loving it.
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 800
    Thank Dan H. for the velocity numbers I came up with... the info came right from my 1994 printing of TLA.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,622
    Thanks, Dave!
    Retired and loving it.