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Utica Boiler Flame Issue

ehonig7
ehonig7 Member Posts: 13
I am looking for some advice regarding my Utica Propane fired boiler. The boiler is about 20 years old and has been pretty reliable. I have been having intermittent issues with it for a little while now and am hoping someone can offer some insight. The boiler will fire with no issues but every now and then the first fin on one or two of the burners will not light or hesitate. I only noticed it as there is sometimes a slight smell of propane in the house. This is not enough to set off any detector or alarm. It does not happen all the time which is why whenever a tech has been called out they say they don't see it.
I have swapped the burners (thinking they may have been warped) and ordered new orifices. The new burners did not help. The new orifices won't be in till next week. Is there anything I am missing? I am just tired of the random smell and of course, want to make sure it is actually safe.
I was able to catch it on video as well.

https://youtu.be/Xvhf9OGdjbw

Comments

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    My guess would be low gas pressure. On the inlet side of you gas valve on the burner you should have 12-14" wc gas pressure.

    On the outlet side to the burner manifold you should have around 10" wc.

    I would guess your technician never checked the gas pressure.

    In addition I would take the burners out and clean them if that hasen't been done
    Ironman
  • ehonig7
    ehonig7 Member Posts: 13
    I don't have a manometer to check it. I will maybe order one since apparently, I can't trust my local company. The burners are new and just did the same thing as the old. But I guess it is eliminated as an issue anytime soon! Just not sure what would have changed to cause this type of issue.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    edited December 2021
    @ehonig7


    You don't need an expensive electronic manometer this water manometer will do.


    What about your propane company? I am sure they know how to check gas pressure. It could be one of the regulators on the tank or the one entering the house sticking. Do you have any other propane appliances? Any issues there? Is this connected to a chimney ? Or is it power vented?


    Propane can act like a refrigerant. when it goes through a regulator and the pressure drops it can freeze the regulator if there is any moisture in the propane tank.

    The propane companies pu "mercaptan' in with the gas to prevent freezing.

    I can't think of anything else except make sure the orifices are clean.

    The boiler floor didn't get flooded did it? Water could get into the burner manifold.

    Sometimes spiders get in through the orifices

    Also check the boiler manifold for the pressures to set it at
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,367
    @EBEBRATT-Ed
    Methanal is added to remove moisture. Mercaptan is added to give the pungent odor to propane. 

    I’m starting to have some senior moments, too.😁
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    EBEBRATT-Ed
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    @Ironman

    Yeah yor right of course. At least I knew it began with an "M" :)
    Ironman
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    Or this senior moment is from sniffing both "M" gases for many years. :)
    Ironman
  • ehonig7
    ehonig7 Member Posts: 13
    I checked vents on regulators, they are clean. 1st stage is about 5 years old 2nd stage is about 15 years.
    It is a direct vent. About 6 - 8 ft total for the vent.
    I have a generator connected on a separate 2nd stage but that runs with no issues. But I also almost never use it.
    New burners are in and again the same issue.
    I cleaned the orifices since the new ones that came today were wrong. Utica manual had the wrong part number. They would be another month for another set.
    No water damage that I know.

    The manometer is coming today so I should have a better idea of the pressure.
    So here is where I am at. I am going to check the pressure on both sides of the valve and report back. The test ports are in a horrible spot so it may be tricky. The gas valve is a Honeywell VR8440M
    Thank you again.. I am tired of the random smell of mercaptan and thanks for the education!
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    Often the gas manifold will have an 1/8" plug for checking manifold pressure.....just remember to put the plug back in when done testing and before firing.

    I could tell the story but it was an unforgettable senior moment (LP also) that has not been forgotten since. :o
    nicholas bonham-carter
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    @JUGHNE

    We were called in as a sub to fire up a new boiler in a school. School was in session.

    The heating contractor met us and said "were all set to go had our gas inspection this morning you can turn the gas on it's all set"

    We checked the boiler piping and the meter everything looked ok.

    My co worker went out and turned the gas on at the meter................he shut it down because the meter wouldn't stop spinning.

    They never told us they had a tee in the ceiling with the gas pressure test gauge on it.

    The forman had told the apprentice to remove the test gauge and plug the tee. He removed the test gauge all right then went looking for a plug that he couldn't find
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    @ehonig7

    Is this direct vent with a power venter or induced draft? Could have too much air. What is the boiler model #
  • ehonig7
    ehonig7 Member Posts: 13
    It is an induced draft. The Boiler is a Utica DV150.
    Bad news; the ports on the gas valve to check the pressure were already stripped they seemed. I was going to try the torx trick but decided to hold off for tonight until I had some more time. Plus replacement plugs of course..
    I did see the port on the manifold and was going to give that a try and see if it would at least show 10wc. I would assume that would be safe to check.
    It definitely sounds like lessons were learned along the way! I am taking all of this in and hopefully won't make those mistakes! Seriously that you for your input!
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    The plug on the burner manifold should be a standard 1/8 pipe plug should be no issue there
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    Here's the boiler manual if you need it
    241.pdf 557.4K
  • ehonig7
    ehonig7 Member Posts: 13
    Thank you for the manual. I had the old one but I found errors. This one is perfect.
    The verdict is in. I am only getting 9 wc on the manifold. I assume it would be the same on the output side of the valve. Now, with a stripped test port on the input side of the gas valve, I will move to the second stage regulator next. Sounds like tomorrow's task as it is cold and dark!
    Thanks again!
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    Hopefully the 2nd stage reg has a test port.
    Depending upon the distance and pipe size from there to the boiler there would be some pressure drop. Most of the regs will do a max of 13" IIRC.
    I would set it up to just right at the max gas valve input as shown on the boiler label.
    And you need to test it with all LP appliances running.
  • ehonig7
    ehonig7 Member Posts: 13
    So instead of worrying about what the second stage is at, just adjust the valve to 10"? The boiler sticker says 10 on it. I am trying to find anything specific elsewhere but not finding any luck. What would cause this to drop like this? I like to know the why to help avoid it in the future.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    If the regulator/gas valve at the boiler won't give you the 10 you need you can try adjusting it up.

    If it doesn't change when you start adjusting stop, that could mean the the reg outside the house is not giving you the 13-14 you need at the inlet pressure to the gas valve

    So if the problem is farther back in the system towards the tank adjusting the gas valve may not help.

    being 1" low on the manifold is substantial
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    Does the boiler sticker say 10" minimum output to the burner manifold where you were on the 1/8" pipe plug on the burner manifold?

    And what does it say for maximum LP pressure to the boiler for the inlet of the gas valve?

    If the gas valve has a regulator to be adjusted for the burners, it needs to be fed with a higher pressure than it must regulate to.
    Any regulator needs a higher pressure feeding it to accurately control the output pressure accurately.

    Why did it fall down?
    Maybe 2nd stage reg a little tired.
    1st stage at the tank should put out about 10 PSI, these are not a fine tuned device.
    Should deliver roughly 10 PSI.
    Gas valve regulator slipping a little. Some older equipment did not use the gas valve reg...relied upon the 2nd stage to handle everything.

    So I would recommend checking the 2nd stage.
    I have had issues with the plugs in gas valve so when piping gas lines I add a 1/2 X 1/4 tee after the appliance gas stop. Then with a 1/4 x 1/8 bushing can check the pressure without fighting with those cheesy aluminum plugs in gas valves.
  • ehonig7
    ehonig7 Member Posts: 13
    Alright, here is my update. To many aluminum fitting everywhere that are garbage. I finally was able to hook up to the stage two reg. The second stage was low in my opinion. I measured 10.2wc going to the gas valve. I brought that to about 11or so. This brings my wc at the manifold to 9.6. I know the 2nd stage can handle up to 13. Would you recommend I just increase that pressure to close to 11.5 or so to make up that difference? I was tempted to adjust the gas valve but figured to leave well enough alone. I do have a new 2nd stage on the way just in case. With the holiday schedule, I decided to order it to be safe.
    I, as always, appreciate your input.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,367
    Get the manifold pressure to spec. You can increase the second stage to 12” WC, maybe a little higher, as long as it doesn’t over-fire anything else connected to it.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • ehonig7
    ehonig7 Member Posts: 13
    Was able to adjust the second stage up to about 11.5 or so. Drops to about 11 when the boiler is running.
    The manifold now comes in at 10.02 wc. So now I guess it is just a waiting game. I did this earlier this morning and I have not had any smell at all today. I took a look at the flames and they seem even and all of the fins on the burner seem fine. Again, it was always intermittent so I guess only time will tell. Based on all of this are there any further recommendations? Do you think it is worth it to swap out the second stage? Thank you all again!
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    If all the burner slots have flame on hem which they didn't in your original picture your probably ok. As you said time will tell. 11.5 dropping to 11 seems normal.

    So you got a 1" wc pressure increase on the manifold. That should help
    Daveinscranton