One cast iron radiator not heating....

wcweaver3

Hi -
I have a 2 story home built in 1940. It has a gas Burnham hot water radiator system and is divided into 2 zones. Maybe 2100 square feet in total.

Yesterday, the local heating company swapped out a B&G 100 series circulator pump for a Grundfos UPS15-58FC. The B&G was clattering and it sounded like a had crickets in the basement.

When they fired it up, Zone 2 was cold and they had to do a "chase bleeder." They bled all the other radiators in Zone 1 and all seemed fine for both zones.

We have two radiators in the master bedroom and both are on Zone 1. There are 2 other radiators on the second floor and both are on Zone 1.

This morning, one of two radiators in the master bedroom is ice cold, top and bottom. All other radiators on the second floor heat up nicely, including the other one in the master bedroom.

I attempted to bleed the cold radiator and water immediately spurted out. The valve on this cold radiator is wide open. Opening the closing the valve and leaving it in various positions has no impact. The radiator measures 30" tall, 29" wide and 11" deep.

I immediately thought it had to be bled, but now I have no idea what the cause could possibly be. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

neilc

turn off the boiler, and circulator, and try bleeding again,
maybe the circ was pushing the water you saw,
and the air was pushed aside,
while bleeding with circ off,
alternately open and close the valve you have at the radiator,

if water stops flowing at the bleeder,
close the vent,
and let's discuss boiler pressure, and the fill valve

if this doesn't work,
post picture of the rad, then of the boiler and pipes and circs, one distant picture for starters,

did they miss opening any valves down at the boiler?

wcweaver3

Thank you for the quick and thoughtful advice. I did what you suggested (alterternating open and closing the valve, with circ off while bleeding). Nothing happened except that water continued to come out of the bleed valve. However, about 12 to 16 hours later the radiator slowly started to heat and as of right now, is about 80% of what it used to be. My guess is that it may take a day or two, but this radiator will come back to 100%. Is this a typical "resurrection" of a cold radiator? Many thanks!

neilc

was there any air ?

are you hearing any running water sounds, trickleing brook sounds ?
in any of the system?
if so, that would be air,

Dan says,
if you keep bleeding, and you're not getting any air, then you don't have an air problem,
you have a flow problem / balancing problem

zone valves or 2 circulators ?

try closing your hot radiators about half way,
you can always open them up a little , , ,

make sure the cold one is fully open,

post a picture of both ends of the cold one

wcweaver3

Hi - thank you. I was not getting any air when bleeding the upstairs radiator, but the radiator is no longer cold, it's what I would consider normal. I have new Grundfos pump with 2 zone valves. However, a radiator in the first floor hallway is now ice cold and a nearby older style baseboard radiator that runs around half the living room is really slow warming up in the morning. It took 4 hours to raise the living room temperature this morning from 58 degrees to 62 and it was 28 degrees outside last night. When I am in the basement and the furnace initially kicks in in the morning (it's a program, 58 at night, 63 in the day), it sounds like I am in an aquarium - lots of gurgling noises. The radiator in the first floor hallway doesn't have a bleed valve or a flow valve. The living room radiator has a bleed valve (only water comes out, no air) and it doesn't have a flow valve. Prior to installation of the new pump, both radiators heated up fine. Thoughts?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@wcweaver3

Can you post some pictures of the boiler and piping around the boiler? Stand back 10' so we can see if you have any air vents or air removal device around the boiler.

Sure seems like an air issue.

As @neilc said try bleeding with the pump off the air will rise to the high points of the rads

wcweaver3

Hi - thanks for your continued interest. Attached are pictures of the furnace (it does have a Spirovent) as well as the slow heating living room baseboard radiator and the cold hallway radiator

wcweaver3

Note that in the furnace picture, there is a red valve handle that is almost closed (upper right hand corner). This valve and it's piping manage the basement radiators in Zone 2. There are also some Zone 2 radiators in the "back den" and laundry room on the 1st floor of the house. If this red handle isn't mostly closed, all the Zone 2 water tends to hang around in the basement radiators. If it's almost closed, it forces water upstairs to the rads in the back den and laundry room served by Zone 2. The radiators in the hallway, living room and the rest of the house are served by Zone 1. All those valves are wide open.

bucksnort

I'd hate to be anywhere near that expansion tank when it eventually fills with water and breaks off.

neilc

is there a boiler water pressure gage, or tridicator, temp and pressure?
what is your boiler pressure?
picture ?
should be 12~15, 20 tops on a hot boiler,

where is your makeup water feed ?
picture ?
it should be tied in at the expansion tank, on that capped nipple,

the red handle valve is "balancing" water flow right now,
but if other rads are going cold then it seems you're chasin a pocket of air around your system,

what is your boiler pressure ?

and yeah, that tank needs support,
even if you just mechanic strap it to the floor joists above,

wcweaver3

Hi -thank you for the thoughtful comments and advice, I will get right on the expansion tank support - do you a recommendation? Something hanging from the ceiling or maybe a shelf support? Anyway, attached are pictures of the guage and water makeup valve. The makeup valve is above the furnace near the ceiling - water comes in from the city, goes through the makeup valve (to the right of the yellow lever) and then down to the expansion tank and into the pump, etc. The furnace runs from a pressure of about 12 (cold) to maybe 20 tops, but it generally hangs around 18 when it's been running on and off for a couple of hours.
Today, the "heater guy" visited and tried to bleed Zone 1 without much success. He then bled the long living room radiator, through the bleed valve (let water come out of the valve into a container, drain the container and then repeat) for about an hour. He had the furnace running and the Grundfos pump on "high." This seemed to work a little bit. He suggested the front hallway radiator is "tied into" the living room radiator, but the front hallway radiator doesn't have a bleed valve. After about 4 hours, we decided to let it run a couple of days to a week to see if the air works out of it. If not, then I'll call him back. Is there a way to put a bleed valve onto my front hallway radiator? It seems that one of the pipes entering it is very warm/hot, but the other pipe coming out of it is just luke warm. We were thinking that if we could bleed that radiator, it might help unlock the other. Thoughts?

Jon_blaney

We need pictures of hall radiator.

wcweaver3

Hi Jon - the hall radiator picture is attached

neilc

how many floors up to the highest rad in the master ?

could you get the cover off for another picture inside?
(maybe a different one you've been in before)

wcweaver3

hi - one floor up to the second floor and the highest radiator. Trying to get the cover off this hallway radiator - it's painted shut, but will post when I get it off.

neilc

if they're all the same, show us one you've been in before

wcweaver3

Hi -here is the picture of the hallway radiator with the cover off. It took a box cutter to cut the paint, WD-40 to loosen it up, a rubber mallet and about 20 minutes of banging on it, but it finally came off. Sitting on top of the left pipe is a bleed valve. I opened it maybe about 1/8th of a turn and bleed some air for about 30 seconds until water came out. The thing heated right up. As far as I can tell, this is the last radiator before the water goes into the furnace again. I think I still have a problem with the long living room radiator, which the the one just before the hallway radiator, but I am going to let the furnace run a couple of days just to make sure it's still an issue. Any thoughts on the device to support the expansion tank as was pointed out in previous comments? I've seen this device called "hydroclaw" - is it any good? Thank you!!

neilc

are you still hearing the air sloshing down at the boiler ?
is that little stem on the air separator free, sometimes they freeze up, seize up,
if you push in bump in, on it, gently, does air spit, or water ?

you might want to go around once more, or more, and bleed at each of your convectors,
just crack the vent open and tighten on water,

EBEBRATT-Ed

@wcweaver3

What I suggest with the expansion tank is take it off. Put a longer nipple in the valve with a 90 deg elbow on it pointing down.

Then get a pipe hanger at the big box. a 1/2" split ring hanger for threaded rod will work or a 1/2" clevis hanger to fit on the new longer nipple. Hang as close to the elbow as possible. Rund 3/8 threaded rod from the hanger up.

If under a floor joist use a "sammy" threaded for wood on one end and 3/8-16 female thread for threaded rod on the other end

If not under a joist nail or screw a scrap 2x 4 across 2 joists to line up with the rod, drill a 3/8 hole in it and put the rod up with nuts and washers

Expansion tanks should be upright not upside down or on their side

wcweaver3

Hi -
Nelic - I can't hear any air sloshing around in the boiler - no gurgling noises at all. The little stem is free and initially, it spit out a drop of water, then air for about 30 seconds and then water. I will do another round of bleeding - thank you for the recommendation.
Ed - I really appreciate the step-by-step direction on the expansion tank. As I am just a inquisitve homeowner, and not an HVAC person, removal and repositioning of the expansion tank is beyond my capability. I will, however, review with my heating guy to see what he can do.
Many thanks!!!