Water hammer in new boiler wet return

MikeEboy

Hey everyone!

First time posting and I'm hoping you guys can help me out. I recently had a new crown gas boiler installed. A day after it was installed I noticed the water level was way too high and water was brown. I do not have an automatic water feeder.

I was instructed to flush the system a few times and keep adjusting the sight glass level until it was at the specified water level. A lot of brown water came out of the boiler and no matter how many times I flushed it it never came out completely clear. I filled it to the water line and fired the boiler back up. 

Afterwards I noticed a boiling sound in the equalizer pipe while the boiler was running, along with banging pipes at my radiators. Also a LOUD water hammer developed in the equalizer pipe upon shutting down the boiler. So much so it would rattle my first floor. The water in the sight glass would bob up and down and when the boiler was on, and when the boiler was was off for awhile the water level would rise. I kept removing water and the water level finally became stable when off but would still bob when on. The water hammer persisted. 

I attempted to lower the water level below the water line. No change. I tried putting the water level above the water line. No change. I tried lowering the pressure. No change. I don't know what to do at this point.

The only things I was able to research that could be wrong is there is a clog in the wet return line, but a new return was installed going into the boiler when the boiler was installed. The rest of the wet return before the equalizer pipe is old however. Also the Hartford loop might be too high causing the water level in the sight glass having to be too high. Other than that I'm at a loss. 

I included pictures. I know the water level is high as I was attempting to get the water above the Hartford loop. Where the water line is marked it is equal to the Hartford loop. Thank you in advance

KC_Jones

Copper isn't supposed to be used on steam boilers.
The piping that is there, isn't done properly, in fact that specific piping is called out in the manual for that boiler as being wrong (see screenshot).
The Hartford loop appears to be undersized (hard to tell in pictures) and definitely too long. The height of it needs to be checked as well. That could be the reason for the banging. It should be 1 1/2" and the height should be 26 5/8" from the bottom of the boiler.

Finally, any new boiler needs cleaned, usually this is skimming (preferred method), but Crown has their own cleaning procedure, which honestly should have been part of the installation. See page 27 of the manual, which I'm guessing the installer has never looked at.

https://www.velocityboilerworks.com/documents/BSI_Installation_Manual_March_2021.pdf

KC_Jones

One other thing, if you haven't made final payment, don't.

No matter what, you will probably be in for a bit of a fight with the installer to fix any of this. The incorrect piping is shown in the manual and can't really be argued. The copper, well I didn't see it in that manual, but it is in others and anyone that actually knows steam knows it's a no no.

Jamie Hall

Well... I doubt that there is much amiss that tearing out all the new copper piping around the boiler and replacing it with black iron, piped as the boiler installation manual describes (as a minimum), won't fix...

bmma

A couple things to add to what others have already said, you didn't mention if the boiler was skimmed after installation. I suspect it was not, and that can definitely contribute to the problems you're experiencing. Also, are you sure you don't have an automatic water feeder? A couple of the pictures you posted appear to show one on the water supply line.

EBEBRATT-Ed

So sad. Another bad installer that refuses to follow the written instructions in the boiler manual. @MikeEboy too bad, don't pay them

MikeEboy

Unfortunately I had no idea that he did anything wrong and it worked fine when they were here so I did pay him... Should I get a second opinion and bring that report to the original installer? I'm not sure how to proceed from here

EBEBRATT-Ed

I would call the original installer, tell him your having banging issues and were told it is wet steam. You read the manual and he did not follow the MFG instructions. Tell him you are very concerned that if there ever is a warranty claim on the boiler that the MFG will not honor the claim because it was not installed in accordance with the manual (which is 100% true).

Tell him you want him to follow the instructions in the manual (especially the piping drawing) and the correct size pipe. Tell him he should skim the boiler water after completion (unless your willing to do that).

He will hem & haw and say he knows more than the boiler mfg and he ha been doing installs this way for 40 years etc etc.

You will have to negotiate with him. Maybe he repipes it for free, you buy the material at his cost.

Since this was not spelled out prior to starting the job your going to have to decide how big of a club to use and how hard to swing it.

KC_Jones

Having made final payment I’d fear an uphill battle at this point.

The first opinion is the manual, which clearly shows what you have as being wrong.

As far as the copper, that will probably be impossible.  If he knew to do black pipe he would have, that’s just my opinion, you could still discuss with them.

The Hartford loop size, height, and layout are also in the manual, without being there we can’t measure anything, you could and we could advise what is and isn’t wrong.  I can tell you the connection is too long, how much trouble that will cause is unknown, but it is known to cause problems.  The size looks small, and the height I’m not sure about.

You could try getting a second opinion, but it’s hard to say how that will go, and you will definitely have to pay for the other contractors item.  Also, how does one know the second contractor knows anything?

Where are you located?  We might know someone in your area that knows what they are doing.

MikeEboy

Thank you very much for your help. I am in Bound Brook NJ. Any assistance is greatly appreciated

KC_Jones

I don’t know NJ very well but there are some great steam guys in NJ, I’ll tag the ones I know about.

@EzzyT @clammy @JohnNY

MikeEboy

Here is the hight to the top of the Hartford loop from the bottom of the boiler casing, not the floor.

MikeEboy

Smallest pipe leading to wet return is 1 1/2"

MikeEboy

Here is the water line Mark which is even with the top of the Hartford loop, but I feel this is way too high up on the sight glass... (I know the water in the sight glass is too high,I have since brought it down to the mark)

EBEBRATT-Ed

@MikeEboy

I would try negoating with your contractor. Give him a chance to do the right thing. If he want's to do a copper header again don't do that. Get in touch with one of the 3 @KC_Jones posted about.

They post pictures of their work on here all the time.

You would be in excellent hands. All he has to do is following the piping diagram in the manual and someone has to skim the boiler and you will be fine.

MikeEboy

I appreciate the advise. What about the Hartford loop height? I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be 26 5/8 from the floor according to the diagram in the manual, no? Right now it's that height from the bottom of the boiler casing. And at the very least is the water level supposed to be equal with the top of the Hartford loop also at 26 5/8? Thanks again.

KC_Jones

It should be 2" below the normal water line. So measure your water line from the floor, then compare that to the Hartford loop location. If it's to spec then that is one thing off the list.

SgtMaj

That installation is going to make a lot of noise the way it is piped. I pray that you can get the contractor back to fix it.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@MikeEboy

The normal boiler water level should be in the boiler manual. If the mfg doesn't specify then it's assumed to be 1/2 a glass.

The bottom of the hartford loop measurement should also be in the manual. Again if not it is assumed to be 2-4"below the normal water level

MikeEboy

Thankfully I contacted the installer and they came and admitted that the guy that was here, who has since been fired, dropped the ball. They are getting the parts today and are correcting the errors tomorrow. Thank you guys SO much for your help, without it I would have never gotten this corrected. I am extremely grateful!

KC_Jones

That’s awesome news and honestly shocking.  Please post back after the fix, we enjoy hearing the final conclusions.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@MikeEboy Let's hope they step up and fix you up. Looking forward to the new pics!

MikeEboy

Well...in an unfortunate turn of events they installed it incorrectly once again... They put the equalizer pipe that drops down into the return BEFORE the steam main... So essentially the single header pipe comes off the boiler... Then the pipe down to the return... Then at the end is the steam main up to the radiators. I know this isn't right but what are the potential issues caused by this? Thanks again in advance. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

@MikeEboy

Unfortunately your installer is not going to get this right. I would have shown him the piping diagram in the manual.

Steam is sometimes forgiving, most of the time it is not.

If the job is piped right and the boiler is skimmed it will work well

If it's pipe wrong you will probably always have issues. Even if it heats well (which it probably won't) you will get wet steam and pipe banging.

This will cause you to use more fuel than necessary & possibly shorten the life of the boiler.

Go on You Tube and watch this video. search Dan Holohan Near boiler piping on you tube. It explains it better than we can.

Your contractor needs to see this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KutfrNrmNE

MikeEboy

The sad part is I did show them, and I even made a diagram and put it up against the pipes to show them. The owner agreed with me and whoever came today did something completely different. I'm having someone come in next week to take a look and I'm going to send a picture to Crown to see what they say. If they come to the conclusion that it's wrong once again I'm going to file a fraud claim with my bank... Thanks again for the help guys. I'll post pictures once they are done.

EzzyT

@MikeEboy the best way to reach is at 2018878856. As others have mentioned the near boiler piping is all wrong the copper is a no go.