Fire up boiler using second control

Ukrlotus

Hi, my hydronic baseboard 4 zone system with one circulator works fine as intended. I  have added independent 5th radiant heat zone that is independently powered. The 5th zone is wired using thermostat, second circulator, and zone valve through single zone grundfos controller. Everything  works: on call for heat zone valve opens and energizes circulator pump. Grundfos single zone controller wiring diagram tells me to wire boiler TT terminals to single zone controller relay 2, C and N/O. Gas boiler Utica is equipped with L6081A aquastat and 8148E 24volt gas control. Where I should connect single zone controller C and N/O leads on a boiler to fire the boiler when 5th zone thermostat calls for heat? I am also trying to avoid conflict with my baseboard 4 zone system. I appreciate all responses that would help to warm up most usable part of the house. Thank you.

EdTheHeaterMan

Edit: You should connect the control to the L8148 control T T terminals... so long as there is nothing connected to the C1 terminal. How are each of the 4 original zones wired from the thermostat to the (zone valve, zone valve relay or circulator relay(s)) to the burner control (L8148)?

This may help
http://media.blueridgecompany.com/documents/ZoningMadeEasy.pdf

If there is a circulator connected to the C1 terminal than the full part number (like L8148E 1257) of all the controls will help. and pictures of the way the controls are wired.

Also what does the L6081A control do? Do you have your hot water connected to the same boiler with a tankless coil?

Edit:

Here is a diagram I started for your system If you give more details, I can help you understand the purpose of each control and get you where you need to be.


If you pump os connected to the L8184 control then you may have zone valves for the other 4 zones. We will need to redesign some wiring ot get the burner to operate safely, without operating the circulator for the other 4 zones.

Ukrlotus

Hot water tank is separate system. L6081A controls high and low boiler temperature limit.  original 4 zone thermostats and zone valves wired in parallel so if any of four thermostats calls for heat corresponding zone valves opens up and energizes circulator through relay. Only two wires go to boiler: red and white. Enclosed is picture of L6081A aquastat and wiring connection from 4 zone system.

Ukrlotus

The two black wires seen on aquastat picture goes to gas control valve

EdTheHeaterMan

OK, so the you are only using the L6081A 1010 control for a second high limit. Not the control i would purchase for that purpose, but If it was the only one on my truck and I needed a replacement L4006A in a pinch. The L6081A does the trick. No problem or safeth issue to do that.

Now that we know that you probably have the circulator for the original zones connected to the C1 and C2. We have a way around that. Give me a minute to redraw the diagram

Ukrlotus

The 5th zone grundfos sigle zone controller wiring diagram is enclosed. Thermostat is wired using three wires it requires.

EdTheHeaterMan

Since you don't have T T on your boiler as the diagram indicates, here is where you place the wires that should go to T T


By using a Torx drive to loosen the terminal indicated, and placing both the wire from the control that is already there and the R wire from the Grundfos relay as indicated, You will be able to fire the burtner thru the limit without operating the pump for the existing zones. The Circulator will power up by relay #2 NO terminal as shown on your diagram. Finally you will need to get a 24 volt 20VA he transformer to open the zone valve. connect t as indicated in my diagram.

EdTheHeaterMan

@Ukrlotus What zone valve are you using Model number & Brand and What Honeywell control L8148 are you using letter and last 4 numbers.

Ukrlotus

I do not have the electrical board with c1 and c2 circulator connection that you have included in the original post. I only have controls included in my picture 1 and 2 on the boiler. 4 zone circulator  pump is wired together with 4 zone valves and 4 thermostats in parallel through 120 volt relay. That system was in place for a long time. I will post a picture of wiring tomorrow. Need to put my son to bed.

EdTheHeaterMan

In your original post you indicated you have a 8148e 24 volt Gas Control I want to know what the full number of the 814r 24 v gas control is Take that cover off and picture the wiring there also

Sweet dreams to the Youngster

EdTheHeaterMan

Ukrlotus said:

Hi, my hydronic baseboard 4 zone system with one circulator works fine as intended. I  have added independent 5th radiant heat zone that is independently powered. The 5th zone is wired using thermostat, second circulator, and zone valve through single zone grundfos controller. Everything  works: on call for heat zone valve opens and energizes circulator pump. Grundfos single zone controller wiring diagram tells me to wire boiler TT terminals to single zone controller relay 2, C and N/O. Gas boiler Utica is equipped with L6081A aquastat and 8148E 24volt gas control. Where I should connect single zone controller C and N/O leads on a boiler to fire the boiler when 5th zone thermostat calls for heat? I am also trying to avoid conflict with my baseboard 4 zone system. I appreciate all responses that would help to warm up most usable part of the house. Thank you.

That should be L8148E xxxx and that is the temperature limit for the boiler. Along with the L 6081A 1010 as a second limit controller.

Ukrlotus

Yes the 5 zone valve is already wired to 24 volts transformer. Everything functions as it should less firing boiler. 5th zone using uponor (wisbro) zone valve 4 wires.  4 zone system is using honeywell 8043E zone valves

EdTheHeaterMan

What did you mean when you posted about the 8184E 24volt gas control?

Ukrlotus

Ukrlotus

I am not sure on 8148E. Here is wiring diagram 

Ukrlotus

5th zone wiring

EdTheHeaterMan

I see, someone has removed the L8148 and replaced it with a L6081

That is more difficult to solve.

The red and white wire from the L6081 control... does that go to the end switches on the zone valves? they would be the red wires on the honeywell valves.

Ukrlotus

The boiler is only equipped with two controls showing in picture 1 and 2. If L8148E is not one of them shown on the picture then I don't have anything  else. The wiring diagram for 8148E was attached to the boiler and I thought that gas control in picture 2 is L8148E. Sorry if I confused you.

EdTheHeaterMan

No problem, I will put together a diagram of your system as is. The one on the boiler door is no longer what you have. In the morning you can look it over to see if what i come up with is correct. You will need to follow each wire to see if I have it correct and maybe print it out and make corrections then send me a picture of the corrections.

Ukrlotus

Thank you for sweet  dreams to youngsters.
As far as red and white wire you can see on L6081A: Red wire goes from end switch wires to R of L6081A. White wire comes from zone switch yellow wires and is jumped to TR or TH of gas control valve

EdTheHeaterMan

one question
It should be near a transformer or connected to all the 4 thermostats. let me know

EdTheHeaterMan

From what I can see from your many photos and our discussion, you do not have a place on your boiler that is equal to T T in your diagram. This is because someone has changed the original manufacturers wiring at some time in the past 40 years. Your boiler could be that old. The best I can come up with is this diagram.



If this is what you have, then you can't connect your new zone to this set up.

You will need to replace the L6081 with the correct control. L8148E is available from SupplyHouse.com or a local supply company, or your plumbing, heating or HVAC contractor.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-L8148E1265-High-Limit-Vertical-Mount-Aquastat-Relay-15-DegreeF-differential

Then follow the wiring diagram on the boiler door to make the proper connections. The red wires from your zone valves must be connected in a parallel design to the T and TV on the new control. Then once you test that and find everything is working properly and safely. Make sure the gas burners turn off at the high limit setting , then you can connect you new zone as I outlined in a previous post.

If you plan on having a pro do this, remember that they charge labor and also mark up the parts. It won't be cheap. So don't say I can get that control for only $$$ so why are you charging $$$$ so much more than that. because you are paying for the knowledge he has to make it correct and safe. And Remember. You are literally playing with FIRE inside your home

Sorry I don't have better news. But you are smart enough to know that you should seek help because you could not find T T on your boiler, as most new boilers have that connection clearly marked.

Respectfully submitted,
Mr. Ed

Ukrlotus

The diagram provided reflects somewhat what I have. The brown wire are from 4 zone two-wire thermostats. The white two-wire cable are from only 24 volts transformer I have for 4 zone system. The white wire is also used as one wire jumpers. The white wire is also connected to the relay to energize circulator. Better picture attached.

Ukrlotus

Thank you very much for your guidance Mr. Ed.

EdTheHeaterMan

@Ukrlotus There is another way to resolve the problem. Use a 4 zone valve control. Loke the TACO ZVC-404 https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-ZVC404-4-4-Zone-Valve-Control-Module-with-Priority?gclid=Cj0KCQiAqbyNBhC2ARIsALDwAsBbdnBtW_9QrV1ekQuhWGlz6cjqM-e5BUVhDyRQl2uud9Ln7m3psKQaAoF0EALw_wcB
It is less expensive and will make future zone valve problems easy to diagnose.

Here is the diagram and it is simple to follow. The thermostats and the zone valves get connected to the control as shown in the diagram. The hard part is the circulator line voltage and the Gas Valve/transformer/aquastat low voltage I have made the diagram as easy to follow as possible.

Ukrlotus

Thank Ed and you are right it is very easy to follow. Two questions: currently I have 24volts "C" terminal wire jumped to TR of gas valve. Shouldn't red and black wire on 24 volt transformer be  swapped (24v side)? If I connect TT terminals from zone 5 on call for heat after zone 5 valve opens end switch will complete the circle and boiler will fire. Will it also energize 4 zone circulator ? I also made a sketch of 4 zone wiring 

EdTheHeaterMan

The Red wires are dry contact that close when the valve is completely open. So open valve means switch is ON Closed valve means switch is OFF

You are showing only one thermostat. I'm guessing that you actually have 4 thermostats.

And my most recent diagram is showing a Taco ZVC 404 relay

looks like this:


You can install it yourself if you DIY the 5th zone wiring yourself. The Taco ZVC control will offer you a seperate relay to turn on the gas valve and the 4 zone circulator separately on different relays inside the control. Then the boiler T T in your 5th zone diagram can be this seperate end switch. It will turn on the burner safely with the high limit aquastat (L6081a) without making the 4 zone circulator operate.

The reason that is important is you don't want to operate the 4 zone circ pump if all the zone valves are closed. that will eventually destroy the circ pump.

EDIT: Also the Taco ZVC 404 eliminates the Honeywell R8225A 1017 relay. That is the problem with your existing wiring. any end switch closed (means the valve is open) will operate both the circ pump relay and the gas valve. You need the Circ pump and the Gas valve on separate relays.

EdTheHeaterMan

Here is an update to my last diagram to better understand all the pieces.

On the boiler is the L6081A, the Gas valve, all the zone valves and the circulator. On the wall is the Taco ZVC 404, the Transformer for the gas valve. GONE is the R8225A relay

I fixed your diagram. this still wont allow separate operation of the 5th zone without operating the existing 4 zone high temperature circulator (the new Red B&G 100)


Finally, I am wondering where you added the 5th zone piping to your boiler. I see the return piped in between the boiler and the new circulator. Where is the Supply side piped in and how are you reducing the temperature to the Radiant Floor Heat. Or is this just Radiant Baseboard at the same water temperature?

Ukrlotus

Attached are pictures for radiant staple up system

Ukrlotus

Hi, Ed. Is Grundfos 4 zone valve controller equivalent to ZVC404 EXP. The Taco is on back order. Can I use just ZVC404 without EXP

Ukrlotus

Ed, I recieved ZVC 404-EXP. Just to clarify, your latest diagram showing my 4 zone wiring and 4 zone boiler control through end switch "B pump" terminals. My 5th zone N/O contacts go to the same place-end switch "B pump" Do I interpret your diagram correctly? Thank you.

EdTheHeaterMan

Turn the priority switch off

Ukrlotus

The priority switch was off. My electrical diagram and electrical board for ZVC404-EXP-4  looks different.

Ukrlotus

EdTheHeaterMan

OUCH! that is different from the ZVC control I used to use. Im sorry, but it seems that the ZVC you have will not do the job as I intended. This is my mistake. Let me think on it for some time and I will get it to work.

EdTheHeaterMan

here is the redesign

EdTheHeaterMan

Took some time but I found the old thread and made a complete diagram for you All the contacts and switches are there. they are just in a different place!



Let me know if this works.

Ukrlotus

Ed, Thank you very much. This worked. I will post picture of the finished project some time tomorrow. Your guidance was invaluable.

I am not sure why but it takes longer for the 5th zone than anyone of the four zones to engage boiler after end switch is activated. Maybe it has something to do with low temperature aquastat limit.

EdTheHeaterMan

I’m really interested in finding out if you are still having any problems.  Thanks for the update 

Ukrlotus

Ed, everything seems to work as it should for one little glitch. Zone 1 is controlled by digital honeywell thermostat (two wires). This thermostat does not have C terminal and is battery operated. Zone 2 and 3 operated by exactly same type of  thermostats. I have this yellow light for zone 1 come on for a split second and then off. This light would come on at different frequency without thermostat calling for heat. When thermostat calling for heat everything works as designed. Troubleshooting done:replaced batteries, disconnected 5th zone with no effect. When disconnected W wire from T problem disappears. Also very infrequently see blinking yellow light on zone 2 and 3 but when W wire was disconnected for zone 1 no yellow blinking light appeared. 

EdTheHeaterMan

If zone 1 thermostat is the same as zone 2 & 3 thermostats, try switching the thermostat with a different zone. See if the problem moves with the thermostat or stays in the same place. Then try swapping the thermostat sub-base as well. Also check to see if there is broken insulation on the thermostat wire. Could there be a bare wire connecting when it should not?