System 2000 / radiators won't cool off / boiler ignores thermostat
Comments
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What's not an awful power hog thermostat that's "smart" these days? I care about it being connected to my phone and Alexa, and don't care if it's sitting in the basement utility room as long as I can get a good wireless sensor. We bought Nest 7 years ago because there weren't many options then, and the power company was doing rebates on them. I'm open to switching!
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Sorry. WiFi equals power hog. You can't get around that. If you want those "smart" connections, you're going to have to power the thermostat. None of them are much worse — or much better — than any other.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Ecobee offers wifi with a wireless sensor. Not sure if it can be programmed to sense from the sensor only. Honeywell has the T9, T10 that will take 2 wireless sensors if wanted, and has the capability of sensing solely from the sensors. There's also Honeywell with RedLink, It has its own router, but you only need 2 wires at the thermostat. There would be an interface between the Manager and the thermostat.
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This part: "you can also check for 24 V from Z2 to 24VAC, although the zone valve light would usually be on if you had power there."
Yes I have 24V (23 actually) between 24V and THW, T1, T2, and T3. With all zones off and no calling or heat, but zone 2 valve is OPEN!
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Thanks as always @hvacnut
Thanks as always @hvacnut
For this part: " If you have an electrical meter, you can test for 24 volts across Z*(whatever terminal the second floor zone valve connects to), and the 24 vac terminal. If it DOES have 24 volts, check the T* side for 24 volts. If not, remove the wire from Z*, and test it. Cycle another zone to see if the second floor heats."
I have 0V from 24V to Z2 (or any other Z*), and I do have 24V to T2 (or any other T").
I tried disconnecting the Z2 wire. It runs the zone when called, but still doesn't close the zone valve. When I try to heat Z1, it sends the heat to Z2 (before the Z1 zone valve even opens if the boiler is cold to begin with). I'm thinking maybe the zone valve went bad and won't close. Any ideas?
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Since water is flowing out zone two when there is no power on the zone valve (Z2 and 24VAC), that means the zone valve is not closing properly. Your entire problem is likely a failed zone valve, or debris blocking it (less likely).
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.
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Yes. Replace the zone valve.
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It's important to recognize that for testing the zone valve for proper operation, check for 24 V on the right hand zone output (Z2 in this case), not the input or left hand side (THW, T1, T2, T3, T4, etc.); again also look for flow with the zone valve not powered and a different heating zone on.
Your resistors are probably still working fine on your power stealing thermostats - if you have questions on these connections and wiring options, you can visit our website or this post which has further information and a link.
Roger
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.2 -
Just a note and I'm not sure if anyone addressed this or not so forgive me if i am repeating. The picture from last year of the left side of the manager has various colored wires connected to the input side of the manager from your thermostats. Aside for the common wire issue with nest thermostats, they are also finicky with polarity. May be a good idea to confirm the out puts from A1 are connected to the red at the nest and the white from the nest goes to your proper T connection on the manager. Yes A2 is the common terminal for this.
When the nest needs recharging is when the ghost calls appear. This can happen with no lights signaling a call. Feel Free to message me if Youd like further help. I'd be glad to walk you thru any issues you may have.
Rob W
Energy kinetics
Robert W.
Energy Kinetics
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@KyleO If I recall the ZVs on those systems are honeywell. If I am correct you can simple replace the ball and stem without removing the whole valve. I say simply but you will have to isolate and drain the loop. Much easier than replacing the whole valve.
Honeywell, Inc. 40003918006 Honeywell Zone Valve conversion kit
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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Yea it's Honeywell, this one:
Maybe I can get away with a dry fix and just replace the motor (maybe it's seized). I'll report back after it arrives.
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It's likely not the motor, could be but because it's a normally closed valve the spring on the actuator(motor) is what closes the valve and if the valve stem is tight the spring can't close it. I was able to free the stem once with a drop of 3 in 1 oil while turning it back a forth but it was a short lived repair.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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Purchase this:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-Home-40003916-026-Replacement-Head-for-V8043E-Zone-Valves
Use a T10 to remove and reinstall. Two screws………10 minutes and you're done.
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That looks like a compatible head, although if the valve is replaced, is must be done with a full port valve (Cv 8 vs much more restrictive Cv 3.5). This will allow proper flow to the zone. The link shows a Honeywell valve with an endswitch (which is not needed here, so it has two extra wires).
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.1 -
Replacing the actuator (head) is certainly the easiest thing to do @KyleO. But I have not found that that has never been the cause of a valve failing to close completely or at all. You could take the cover off an look to see if the spring is still attached. The spring is what closes the valve when power is removed from the actuator.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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The 3.5 valve can deliver 35K BTUH with a pressure drop of only 2.3 feet. I cannot imagine anyone needing more through 3/4 piping.
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Thank you for your comment, @LRCCBJ. For reference, Energy Kinetics only recommends full port valves as the Frontier boiler is piped with a bypass for a plate heat exchanger which also helps prevent condensing. The typical 3.5 Cv zone valves have an opening about 3/8" diameter, which allows some flow to the zone, but results in higher bypass flow than would be seen with the 8 Cv valves. 3.5 Cv valves will deliver heat, but they are not what we recommend and they will not perform as well.
Best,
Roger
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.
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If you have the Erie 2 wire zone valves, they're easy to pop off. You can interchange 2 actuators to see if the problem switches to the other zone, or stays in the same zone. If it switches, it's the actuator. If it stays, the zone valve body needs replacement.
Turn off the power. Use the levers on the zone valves to manually open and lock into place. The side of the actuator has a button. Press it, and it just pops off. No water involved.
You'll have to swap the wires at the Z terminals as well.
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The 8 Cv valves have, essentially no restriction. The 3.5 valves have a pressure drop of only 2.3 feet @ 3.5 GPM (close to the limit of a 3/4" piping). It's difficult to make an argument that the 3.5 valve will impact the Frontier in a negative way. The pressure drop of the zone attached to the valve caused by the EL is significantly higher than the restriction caused by the valve.
Of course, you can recommend anything you wish.
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Yes thanks, I definitely made sure the springs are still connected as I had that issue in the past. I wish it were that easy of a fix. But thanks for the suggestion!
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Honeywell zone valve arrives tomorrow. May do a swap in the morning to see if it's the actuator before replacing the whole thing, as I'd really like to avoid a wet fix the day before turkey (and it's cold here already). Will report back. Thank you to all of you for the great support. Probably the best forum around!
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If you take the actuator off and you can't turn the shaft easily with your fingers, it's done. Drain the water pressure out of the zone, remove the four 5/16" bolts installed the new components from the new zone valve. This is a very common problem with the Honeywell zone valves. I replace a few of them every week this time of year. I never see them used on EK boilers and I imagine this is why. EK boilers usually have Erie or Caleffi zone valves.
I would recommend replacing the 3/4" automatic air vent and checking the pressure on the air bladder in the expansion tank while you have the boiler drained down. That way you don't have any other problems after replacing the zone valve. This is just a couple of the things that would be done if you called a good professional to take care of this.
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Honeywell actuator is easy as well. Lock it open. The new one should come already locked open. 2 screws and it pulls off.
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If you take the actuator off and you can't turn the shaft easily with your fingers, it's done. Drain the water pressure out of the zone, remove the four 5/16" bolts installed the new components from the new zone valve. This is a very common problem with the Honeywell zone valves. I replace a few of them every week this time of year. I never see them used on EK boilers and I imagine this is why. EK boilers usually have Erie or Caleffi zone valves.
As a contrarian point of view…………..I have 9 of them in one building for the past 15 years. None of them have failed due to the inability to rotate the shaft. Four motors have failed. One actuator has failed. That's it.
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Hopefully they hold up well for you. I find ones that are that old lasting longer than the zone valves made in the last ten years. I don't know if Honeywell started making them differently or what. But I find the shafts sticking all the time, especially when the boiler has glycol. With glycol it seems like the customers are lucky to get 5 years out of a zone valve.
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The motors fail pretty often in my experience but when they do they fail in the closed position either the gears strip because of a stuck shaft or the motor just fails. I have never found that replacing a motor or whole head will solve a valve that fails to close completely. If that shaft does not rotate smoothly with your fingers it's time to replace it. That Honeywell conversion kit I mentioned will solve the problem with out having to cut out the whole valve and resolder or press a new one in. Easy Peasy
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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It's like everything else produced today. The design is robust. However, the ability to meet the design tolerances has, effectively, disappeared. To meet the price point, the manufacturer accepts product that is wildly out of spec. So, the product cannot last more than five years. In the case of the valve, I'm sure that liquid is getting into the area where the shaft passes through the plate and it eventually stops the shaft from rotating. With these tiny motors, it doesn't take must resistance to cause the valve to fail.
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Update: got the new zone valve, put it on, works like a charm. Thank goodness! I'll probably still move the thermostats to the basement and run a common with a transformer to avoid the nest problems. Thanks again for all the help everyone! Happy Thanksgiving
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