Boiler Prices

GigiRod

Hello all,

I just got a message from one of the companies quoting my oil boiler replacement. They told me that the manufacturers are raising the prices and on Sept 2nd prices will go up 10%. Has anyone heard similar or is this a pressure tactic to get me to sign?

Steamhead

That's been going on all year. Good luck.

SlamDunk

Doubt it is a pressure tactic. I don't see 10% as much pressure. If other contractors are not saying the same thing, or you don't trust him then toss his quote.

GigiRod

So the price increase is legit? I couldn't find anything on the web, so figured it might be an industry insider-type thing.

SlamDunk

10% isn't outlandish. There are price increases on just about everything including groceries. Now, if he said 25% increase.....

EzzyT

Some boiler manufacturers have all ready had price increases at least twice this year and projected to go up again one more time before the end of the year. But across the board everything has gone up in price. 

GigiRod

Ok, thanks for the insight everyone! @EzzyT good to know.
I was just curious because no one else mentioned it and it felt kinda pushy, but maybe they are just letting me know.

mattmia2

It is fairly likely that they have eaten some of the cost increases and it reached a point where they had to pass some of it on.

SlamDunk

Yeah but pushy iss a major turn off.

GigiRod

@SlamDunk It is, especially when I'm balancing these proposals with other quotes (asbestos, chimney liner) and trying to make myself informed on my system and what to look for in a proposal (what's a given and what should be explicitly stated).

Jersey2

What brand boiler? Or all of them are going up? 10% on a 3K boiler will be an additional $300. I am going to get a new boiler in the near future too but I doubt that it will be in September.

SlamDunk

Cant discuss prices here but in my opinion, $300.00 is chump change if you have a good installer.

GigiRod

The tech had told me across the board. It's for a Crown boiler (~150k BTU, oil, steam). I'm sticking with oil for now since the gas conversion (done right and brought up to code) would be very expensive.

SlamDunk

150kbtu? You must have a large house with lots of rads. Are your bids made after counting rads and calculating how much routput they provide ? Easy enough to check yourself. If new boiler is oversized, you will pay high fuel bills for years.

GigiRod

Everyone was pretty consistent with the btu. Not sure what counts as large. I have 2 floors, about 2000 sq ft, 10 radiators. The radiators are all 14 sections, three have 5 tubes, seven have 4 tubes, and vary mostly by height (2 shorter ~20", the rest 25-27").

JakeCK

GigiRod said:

Everyone was pretty consistent with the btu. Not sure what counts as large. I have 2 floors, about 2000 sq ft, 10 radiators. The radiators are all 14 sections, three have 5 tubes, seven have 4 tubes, and vary mostly by height (2 shorter ~20", the rest 25-27").

2000sq ft? Is your house made of glass? Are you in the Arctic circle? Sounds way oversized unless you leave the windows open year round'. I have a 1500 sq ft colonial with almost no insulation and wood windows. @ design(2f if I not mistaken) for my area I need about 65k btuh. My 115k btu boiler is almost twice as big as it needs to be and it shows with its cycle times in the middle of January.

GigiRod

@JakeCK I'm in NYC. Very old house with barely there insulation and old windows you need to prop open with something. I'll bring up the size with the company I'm considering. Everyone was pretty consistent so I didn't question it. Figured they must know something I don't.

GW

Legit, I’ve eaten a lot of money with this inflation spree, but whatever. I’m adjusting as I go. If you think he’s twisting your arm, you can shop elsewhere. It’s a free (still) country 

JakeCK

GigiRod said:

@JakeCK I'm in NYC. Very old house with barely there insulation and old windows you need to prop open with something. I'll bring up the size with the company I'm considering. Everyone was pretty consistent so I didn't question it. Figured they must know something I don't.

I just looked up my design temp, I was mistaken, it is 9f, not 2f. For you depending on where exactly you're at in NYC it is either 17 or 13f. So you're actually a little warmer. Insist on a proper heat loss calc and for them to calculate the radiation. Anything less is guessing.

If possible insulate and tighten up the building envelope before replacing the boiler. If you could cut your btu needs in half by insulating you could pay for the air sealing and insulation with what you would save upfront by buying a smaller boiler. To speak nothing of your on going savings.

Insulation, air sealing, weather stripping. and put storms on the windows if you don't have any. And if you are allowed by any historical society there. Don't replace the windows. It often is a negative ROI once you're on the window replacement marry-go-round.

JakeCK

GW said:

Legit, I’ve eaten a lot of money with this inflation spree, but whatever. I’m adjusting as I go. If you think he’s twisting your arm, you can shop elsewhere. It’s a free (still) country 

yea, we all are, home owners and contractors alike. Don't ask what I just paid to have 50ft of gutters installed.

GigiRod

@GW Yea, I'm not super upset about paying a few hundred dollars more if I decide to wait another week or two. I was leaning towards that company and wanted more to get a sense if the guy was being legit or not. Based on comments it seems he is, so I'll take it as a "just letting you know" type thing than an arm twister (although they aren't mutually exclusive).

@JakeCK I am in upper Brooklyn, not far from lower Manhattan (not in a historic district). Boiler replacement will have to come first. I don't want to sit too long on it. Last fall I waited till Oct and had a hard time with people getting back to me with proposals after initial quotes. I plan to get the attic insulated this fall, walls may have to wait for a bit. Thank you for the advice on windows. In the past, I would cover them with Duck max insulation kits, which made a big difference. I will look into repairing them and installing storm windows. I thought I would have to replace them for sure, which would be the next big, costly project after upgrading the electrical.

mattmia2

Is this steam or hot water? There are a number of excellent contractors on here that work in NYC.

GigiRod

Steam. I looked into the contractor list here and it was a short list based on zip code. Two of the listed appear to be more for consulting/big project design and not small home installation and another that was highly recommended did not get back to me when I reached out. I did get a quote from one of the contractors listed here, but they only do oil to gas conversions. They also recommended a 150K btu. The company was legit about the conversion and not cutting corners, especially when others wanted to do it without permits. Currently, the cost to convert, repipe gas line, bring everything up to code to pass inspection is more than I can swing. However, I will be going with them in the near future to make everything compliant, but getting heat is the main priority so sticking with oil for now. I was told on this forum that I could change the burner to gas when I'm able to bring it up to code.

JakeCK

Being steam they're probably sizing to radiation. I don't know jack about steam really, but still that seems like a lot of heat for a 2k sq ft house. And if you do insulate the attic to modern specs it'll be even more oversized. A good contractor will be able to take into account planned envelope upgrades too as long as you are serious about it and it isn't one of those things where you say you'll do it but don't.

And doing work with out a permit in NYC? lol I've heard that city really takes things like that serious, but I wouldn't know I've yet to find my way that far east. Sure they were actually licensed? 

https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/taking-another-look-at-steam-boiler-sizing-methods/

SlamDunk

My family has two houses in the bronx both @2000sqft multi story. One has a very small boiler, steam, about 80kbtu in. The other, forced air, about 95kbtu in. Sips oil. Both 80% efficiency.

my experience tells me to advise you to stick to oil. properly sized and well maintained your heating bill will be reasonable pending the price of oil. our oil heated house burns @500 gallans per heating season. I think @JakeCK would be shocked to learn that permits are rarely pulled in the bronx. Also my experience.

JakeCK

SlamDunk said:

I think @JakeCK would be shocked to learn that permits are rarely pulled in the bronx. Also my experience.

Not really shocked, same bs happens here. I expect the owners, or the owners friend, or uncle bob to not pull a permit. But for a legitimate business in a city with the resources and bureaucracy as NYC, that's an awfully big risk.

If my livelyhood was riding on my business, I wouldn't risk it by trying to save a few bucks. Also why I asked about them being licensed. A hack with no licensing to do hvac and plumbing wouldn't care. Not much to lose by their calculus. 

GigiRod

In NYC there are few things you can do without a permit. I get it, you have a lot of people living on top of each other, one mistake can cause a lot of damage. But it is a pain, which is why I could see a business steer clear of it if they want the big payday.

I'll go to my cousin/friend/handyman neighbor for certain things like hanging drywall, changing radiator valves, tiling bathrooms. But serious health risks like my gas line I'd only trust to professionals willing to do it right with permits. Plus with developers constantly sniffing around and rotating tenants on my block, I can't trust that someone I don't know wouldn't file a complaint to DOB.

Paul Pollets

Finding a good steamfitter is the key to a proper replacement. As to pricing, we put a clause in the contract to reserve the right to revise and amend bid prices after 30 days from proposal date. The markets are volatile and there's large industry wide material shortages.

GW

One of our vendors has "good for 24 hours" on their paperwork for quotes. It's no joke. I've never had so much money sitting on my floor in the shop, ever, by a 5 fold factor.

Here's an example: a product i routinely install (trying to obey rules here) in people's homes--November- $1,264.53 , This week $1,836.76

SlamDunk

I had to look for my sizing paperwork. I have one radiator that is a corto, five tubes, 20" tall, 14 sections and it radiates 8940 btuh. You have three of those they require 26820 btuh. If you fudged and multiplied 8940 by ten, you need a boiler with an output of 89400btuh. 112000btuh input multiplied by 80% efficiency equals 89600btuh output.

You have seven rads that are four tubes so at 89400btuh boiler output, your boiler would be overszed. You will be burn more fuel. Bigger boilers have bigger burners. Hope this helps and I hope if I am missing something someone will point it out. Good luck @GigiRod !

GigiRod

@SlamDunk I came up with a total EDR of 397.74 (95,458 BTU), I attached my table. Not totally sure if that is correct. I believe these are tubes, not columns. 8 of the radiators vary from 25-27" because of the legs (the tubes are all ~23"). I've read to measure from the floor so I went with the 26" height when choosing the sq ft of radiation per section for those 8 and 20" for the 2 short ones.

My understanding is that the 1.33 is factored in if I go by EDR specified by the boiler model, but if I go by BTU then I should look for an output/doe rating of 126,958 (95,458 x 1.33). Is any of that correct?

SlamDunk

Im gonna cheat and use thIs link.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1308218#Comment_1308218

Had a couple drinks....😁

GigiRod

Adding it to my list of bookmarked posts! This thread has devolved from manufacturer price hikes to boiler sizing, but it's been infinitely helpful 

Lol, enjoy the drink. I'm about to have a glass a wine to forget about my boiler woes and the fact that apparently there are no vents on the main line.

STEAM DOCTOR

@GigiRod. This all fairly straightforward. You and/or contractor need to determine EDR of existing radiators. Find a boiler that matches. Keep in mind, that in essence, every oil fired boiler,  is really a few different sized boilers. Depends on nozzle size(varies) and pump pressure (typically 140 PSI). Make sure installer had proper nozzle installed. And any installer who does not measure radiation,  should be shown the door.

GigiRod

@STEAM DOCTOR no one that has come through has measured EDR, even the one contractor I got from this site. He did do a more thorough look around of the basement than the other guys, but still just told me 150k btu.

STEAM DOCTOR

150K sounds about right,assuming your EDR numbers are correct. But who wants a contractor who takes guesses?? This is a rather large investment. Might as well do it right. 

STEAM DOCTOR

Was 150 input or output? 

GigiRod

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Was 150 input or output? 

No one ever specified, just said it'll be a 150k boiler. I didn't know enough at time of quotes to ask. Reactions earlier on this thread made me look up my edr and learn more about boiler ratings.

SlamDunk

Your numbers looks right. Not much higher than my fudged number,as expected.

I'm not mathematically savvy but a 1.33 pick up factor upsizes your boiler by 33%. If you insulate the steam lines in the basement well, do you need an extra 33%?