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BTU reduction 235k to 140k

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Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    GW said:

    Well thanks for being fair. 20 years ago I was so pro-hydronic, I was slanted. Then I installed a couple systems where the homeowners complained about higher fuel usage (a Viessmann, a Buderus). It took me some time to put the two and two together, as to what happened.

    So, what happened?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    My present steam project is the removal of a 1.3 MBTUH 1958 boiler and replacing it with 3 smaller ones that total 590,000 BTUH.

    I am hoping that I correctly crunched the numbers for heat loss and they have adequate heat this year.....if not that house you see above might be for sale. :*
    GW
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 1,215
    The high electrical usage of most "high efficiency" hot water boilers is one of the reasons I don't install them anymore. The head loss through the heat exchanger requires more power and running full outdoor rest means the pumps are running almost all winter.... again more power. Also, I believe that the heat generated by the motors used in hot water and forced artificially increase the heat output....thus making the equipment look more efficient than it actually is. This would be especially the case for furnaces without ECM motors. It's really bad when you look at ducted cooling... you eat up about over 1/4 ton of cooling for every 1000 watts the fan draw.

    I agree...attic ductwork is usually just insane to do. But the DOE testing was with standard ductwork systems in typical early 1990's homes.
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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    Steamhead on one job we yanked a crappy duct system installed a gb with rads. Now they were pumping heat to all corners of the home/addition, and i suspect they jacked the stat (now that they has a nice new heating system). Anyhow- it threw me for a small loop and i had to explain my way out of it. Those are the old days, now the words flow like I'm some sort of word smith. The other job- chim vent gas Viess, haven't seen or touched one of those in many years. Anyhow, the outdoor reset controller was working the boiler to get the convection process to make heat with the 1950's hot water heating system, and it simply didn't save any money (based on the ho). Another lesson learned.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    yes the small boiler pumps are about 80 watts, not a giant draw, but yes. I used an Alpha at my home but the thing won't kick more than 4 or 5 GPM, which is totally fine for my home (low heat loss). On Joe and Jane Doe's home we use the 3 speed 1558. I dig the Viess cu3a, no boiler pump needed/used. But alas, another example where we are not in a black and white world---you'd rather stop the pump(s) and let the system cool down? That's basic stand by loss, might cost a lot more than the two-cents an hour to run the pump
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    JUGHNE said:

    My present steam project is the removal of a 1.3 MBTUH 1958 boiler and replacing it with 3 smaller ones that total 590,000 BTUH.
    :*

    No guts no glory! send it
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    I did not realize I had already posted about the steam system replacement.
    I have been in that boiler room quite awhile now......or maybe I am getting old and forgetful.
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 1,215
    I think that the old high mass systems do a much better job overall. No need for outdoor reset ( the mass acts nearly the same as reset), long firing cycles with long off cycles in between, making standby losses very low and equipment efficiency quite high. Greatly reduced wear and tear due to much less cycling and pumps running intermittantly instead of all the time.
    While hot water certainly uses more power for "high efficiency systems" particularly when someone installs tons of zone pumps all only needing about 2 or3 gpm, again it forced air where the real power usage comes in. I usually tell people that the standard home furnace uses about 80 times more power than a standard home steam boiler and that hot water Cast iron boilers fall towards the steam end of things and "high efficiency" hot water boilers run more in the middle.

    Usually once we get to steam boilers ( and the occasional hw boiler) around 350,00 input we recommend going to a power burner cast iron boiler... the extra electrical draw starts to make more sense in these larger sizes. Fortunately there are now a few manufacturers making ECM motor power burners and so we use these burners quite often when modulating our steam systems on outdoor reset ( Midco's radiant head burner for radiant designed chambers like old Pacifics and Kewanees) and Industrial Combustion's Q series burners for standard Cast Iron boilers and non radiant chamber design applications). ECM Modulating burners on larger input steam and hot water cast iron or steel boilers are a thing of beauty....drawing about the same amount of power on average as one forced air furnace but heating 70 to 80 units and on the radiant chamber applications typically running about 86 to 88% efficiency for steam. And if you need a condensate return pump, you're moving 50 times more heat with the steam system per gallon of water than the hot water system. Only 1/50 the pumping power is required for steam versus hot water.
    About 500,000 btu/hr of steam equals 1 gpm of condensate flow.

    It's this kind of data which makes me realize just how bad Forced Air is versus these other alternative.
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