My boiler is over filling

shycam

Hi everyone, 

My tenant’s boiler keeps overfilling every time it is low of water. It fills all the way to the top and the only way that it doesn’t make that banging pipe noise is if I either manually feed the water myself or when it does overfill, I turn off the emergency switch so I can dump some water out. At one point, it would overfill so much that water would shoot out of my tenants radiators and would shoot out from the returning water pipe. The sounds are unbearable.. I live in New Jersey and The bedroom is in the basement. As you can imagine all the pipes run over there so I hear everything. When the water is at the right level, the boiler makes a really loud swooshing sound which I believe is the water being boiled. That sound is tolerable but the banging sound is so loud and I can’t sleep nor can my tenants. I have had many plumbers come to my house. They all give me different reasons. One said oh there’s a lot of mud in the pipes.. so they charged me $ to drain the boiler to clean the pipes with this solution. I don’t think it did much as the tube is still dirty and lots of dirty comes out whenever I drain. One other guy told me that the boiler is too big for that apartment.  And that I would need to purchase a smaller boiler or completely install a new water heat system. He told me it can cost about $... and honestly, I can’t afford it.  I need guidance and help.

Jamie Hall

The boiler gets low on water and all by itself overfeeds and floods? Is that correct?

OK. Somewhere on the water supply piping going to the boiler is an automatic water feeder, and it is controlled by a switch on the boiler which senses the low water. Either the feeder isn't working properly, which is quite possible, or the switch on the boiler isn't -- which, if the boiler has been neglected and the switch is the float type is quite likely. The float gets stuck down if the mechanism isn't blown down regularly.

Can you post a picture of the boiler, showing all of the controls? And find the automatic feeder on the water supply piping to the boiler and take a picture of that? Then we can probably suggest what needs to be done. Even if you have to hire someone ;to fix the problem, it's an easy and cheap fix.

So far the plumbers you have had in obviously haven't a clue. They may be good plumbers, but... either they are incompetent or they are taking advantage of you to line their pockets.

aperson

Try to at most pay half and then tell them you'll wait for the invoice. If they don't fix it don't pay.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@shycam

Check "find a contractor on this site"

There are several good ones in NJ. @EzzyT & @clammy

nicholas bonham-carter

Can you check the operation of the low water cut off, (stopping the burner when the level gets low), and valve off the water to the auto-feed, and watch the boiler waterline for a couple of cycles? This should temporarily stop the overfilling.
It is possible that the cleaning solution put in by the plumber is responsible for some of your troubles with this. Draining out all the water, and refilling would remove the chemicals. They can sometimes cause such a violent boiling as to throw water up into the pipes, instead of just steam.
We await any pictures you may send us to give further advice.—NBC

Lance

I am sorry you are in this mess. My advice is strictly optional. We plan to fail when we fail to plan. Step 1. Search and find one honest, trustworthy and competent contractor. You will have to set standards that many of us will easily agree to. Insured, licensed, referenced. You may have to go through hundreds of companies. Start with those listed with authorities, recommended by manufactures, or other reputable sources. Perhaps anyone who had a great experience. or step 2) Go to school for this trade, apprentice for 6 years, and learn to do it yourself. Just expect to pay far more for this education than what a great contractor will charge you. Absolutely do not pay for anything that will not work, no matter how expensive or cheap it is. or Step 3, which is where your are now, seeking advice, finding out how to do it. Just be aware there are many causes and many reasons, singular or combined that cause your systems problems.
Start with learning the minimum requirements to see if your system meets those requirements. You may even need a consultant to review it first. A good plumber may not be an engineer, or a heat expert, or control expert, or even a steam expert. You do not need a plumber, you need a steam heat pro. Remember with many hands come many mistakes. If you are paying, we need to show our competency. If we cannot not, we should not be hired. I have a list of things that number over 50 that can go wrong in this stuff. So far, all my customers that listened to me have been very satisfied with the results even if they had to be told twice. It is hard to judge one good answer from 10 wrong answers when you judge by the majority and not the facts. There are thousands of false answers, but only one right answer. Most of my customers' systems like this have at least 3 problems. 1) what is broke, what is wrong or caused it, what is maintenance. And sometimes we have to remove the previous mistakes by others. PS. Residential steam is a controlled system and deserves a slow rate of makeup water. Lower the water feed pressure to no more than 10 PSI. on a 1/2" pipe. A new boiler is never the solution, if the problems are elsewhere.

MikeL_2

Shycam,
               Does this boiler have a tankless coil for domestic hot water? Tankless coils can develop a leak & overfill the boiler. 
                Is there a manual bypass &  valve piped around the auto feed valve? Manual valves can fail & allow a tiny, continuous trickle that will over feed your boiler.
              Sludge or mud can also accumulate in the return piping & slow the flow back into the boiler - this can also contribute to overfilling.
                 

shycam

shycam

Jamie Hall

Why are the dip switches set the way they are? You need a steam man to look at this system -- no a plumber -- and we've given you names of two of the best.

shycam

Jamie Hall said:

Why are the dip switches set the way they are? You need a steam man to look at this system -- no a plumber -- and we've given you names of two of the best.

How should the dip switches be set to?

unclejohn

Looks to be set for 2 min delay and a 3 min feed.

STEAM DOCTOR

Put switch #2 to the on position and other switches to the off position. 

shycam

Ok I turned on #2 and turned the rest off. 

Can anyone explain to me why my tube isnt clear? I know it’s obviously dirty, but the last two plumbers “cleaned” my boiler and they said that the sludge will go away after some time.

mattmia2

There is sludge in probably the returns and the boiler that should be flushed out.

nicholas bonham-carter

I don’t know where the plummmmers think the sludge will go. There are cleaning products, (8-Way, by Rectorseal), which will loosen any sludge in the bottom, so it can be drained out. Oils floating on the boiler water after any repiping, or installation should be skimmed off, which is a time consuming, but necessary process. No chemical can replace skimming, which can be done by the homeowner.
The glass tube should be removed, and cleaned using a test tube brush.—NBC

shycam

mattmia2 said:

There is sludge in probably the returns and the boiler that should be flushed out.

Yes, the previous plumbers had used a solution to clean the sludge but it still not clean.

shycam

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Can you check the operation of the low water cut off, (stopping the burner when the level gets low), and valve off the water to the auto-feed, and watch the boiler waterline for a couple of cycles? This should temporarily stop the overfilling.
It is possible that the cleaning solution put in by the plumber is responsible for some of your troubles with this. Draining out all the water, and refilling would remove the chemicals. They can sometimes cause such a violent boiling as to throw water up into the pipes, instead of just steam.
We await any pictures you may send us to give further advice.—NBC

Someone had told me that the low water cut off circuit box may be broken.. or defected.

ratio

shycam said:

Someone had told me that the low water cut off circuit box may be broken.. or defected.

This is a dangerous condition. The low water cutoff is one of the safeties that keeps the boiler in the basement & not the neighbor's yard. The boiler should not be operated until this is verified operational.

Have you tried the Find a Contractor link above?

shycam

Ok, so it is not the LWC system. My dad installed the VXT digital water feeder. It made the ehhh sound for a really long time, and did not open for the water to pass through. Does this mean the feeder is defective? I think there is something wrong with the water feeder. I must've changed it like 4 times! And not I tired this one, and it is still not working. It is so bizarre. I can manually feed the water, but the water feeder does not.

JUGHNE

You have at least 2 different devices controlling the water fill.
First is the LWCO, could be a float type or probe type.
That then will tell the other device, VXT in you case to add water.

Pictures of both these are needed, from far back to show any piping and valves.

You should not have to add much water to a steam boiler.
Often the return condensate water is slow, (or possibly leaking where you can't see) to return to the boiler and the LWCO thinks it should add water.
It may do that and then at the end of the heating cycle the slow water does return and flood the boiler.

You must test the LWCO to verify that it does in fact shut the burner down when there is a low water condition. Obviously this should be tested with the fire on.

Jamie Hall

I'm not entirely clear here. When you say you can manually feed the water, is that with the manual feed button on the feeder/ If so, at least the feeder valve is operating. And when you manually feed with the button, does the counter show the fed water? If so, it's very likely that the circuit board is OK, too.

Now... this may be a very stupid question, but the VXT feeder comes in two types: 120 volt and 24 volt. You can't mix them. Are you quite sure that the feeder you have is the correct voltage for the rest of the system? The LWCO and all? It's happened...

shycam

Yes the LWCO does shut off when there is enough water. And it is the VXT-24 model.

I thought my dad fixed it but from time to time especially from 2am-5am it’s banging like crazy.

What else I notice too is that it starts up very often. And then I hear a swooshing sound. Is it suppose to start up like that often?

shycam

I feel like it fills up often, like it runs out of water a lot. Is that normal?

motoguy128

The swooshing sound is water in the main header. The steam then pushes the water forward. At some point it will start to flash into steam and hammer.

I suspect the boiler isn’t piped correctly and the mains has “lost its pitch”. Meaning hanger have failed or floors have settled and the main is no longer pitched downward from the boiler all the way around the basement to where it ends back near the condensate return. Assuming it’s parallel flow.

I fixed a boiler last year where the floors had sagged badly over 100 years and the while main needed lifting and rehung in many places. Its now silent except on cold starts despite the header being piped totally wrong.

Jamie Hall

shycam said:

I feel like it fills up often, like it runs out of water a lot. Is that normal?

No. Opinions vary, but more than a gallon a week on a steam system really is too much, and some would say a gallon a month is excessive.

Ironman

The wet return pipes may be partially clogged causing the boiler to be starved for water while it’s firing. This can cause the water feed to open and add water because the LWCO senses the water level in the boiler is low. Now there’s more water in the system than there should be.

Eventually, the clogged returns allow the excess water to return to the boiler, but now it’s flooded because there’s too much water in it.

shycam

https://youtu.be/F-OZimoy4T4

Here is a video of the sound.

neilc

I couldn't see anything

shycam

neilc said:

I couldn't see anything

I just recorded the sound

shycam

So a plumber came in today... and he said that valve was closed in my tenants bedroom. Now it is not making any noise.

Jamie Hall

Sometimes it's just too easy. Thank you for getting back to us.

JakeCK

And a tenant playing with a valve they shouldn't strikes again!

I'd bill them for the cost of the service call.

shycam

Soooo ACTUALLY I called the plumber back because even with the open valve it was still banging! So frustrating!

I called the plumber at 6am to come back because I didn’t spend $$$ for nothing!

anyway, they found the noise and it was going across the bedroom ceiling in the basement. 

So the plumbers had to cut a huge whole and replace the 10ft pipe with another one. When they took it out, they found water in that pipe. I hope this solved the problem!

neilc

did they find a sag or unsupported length, and fix it also?
or,
did they shorten a vertical anywhere there to add more pitch to the horizontal?

JohnNY

Jamie Hall said:

Why are the dip switches set the way they are? You need a steam man to look at this system -- no a plumber --

Go easy with the plumber bashing, Bruh!

KC_Jones

Unless that pipe was rotted through and leaking, there should have been no reason to replace it. If it is holding water, there is a sag, or slope issue that needs resolved, this could have been done without replacing the pipe. The replacement didn't hurt anything, but it may not have solved anything either.

cutdisc

OMG....yikes and no. I have had similar issues in the past. If we are talking about a steam system - simply try replacing (or even just removing for some moments to let air out of the system) the vent(s) on the side of the radiator. I had a jackhammer sort of sound so loud when i first moved in, I could hear it when I was outside the house. These noises are one of two things and one of two things ONLY. Air trapped in the system that has nowhere to go when up against steam. Steam will win every time and bang. "Condensed steam" (yes.....WATER for those of us at home) stays in the line, for whatever reason at times. This also causes a war in the pipe. Steam passing over/by cold water (condensed steam....they call it that becuase at one point, probably late spring) the system turned off too quickly leaving steam to turn to moisture too many times. will create a large bang also. Many times, leaving the vent off the side of the radiator will allow the air to escape as well as allowing venting for steam to actually "melt" the water. Another solution (although more challenging than it sounds) removing the inlet lalve to each radiator. This also lets system breathe. As spring comes along - we always start getting crazy bangs and noises. Each summer, while redoing a room, I remove radiator for refurb. This allows for water/air to leave. Each fall when system starts most of the noises stop - certainly all of the concerning/sleep inhibitive ones.

KC_Jones

cutdisc said:

OMG....yikes and no. I have had similar issues in the past. If we are talking about a steam system - simply try replacing (or even just removing for some moments to let air out of the system) the vent(s) on the side of the radiator. I had a jackhammer sort of sound so loud when i first moved in, I could hear it when I was outside the house. These noises are one of two things and one of two things ONLY. Air trapped in the system that has nowhere to go when up against steam. Steam will win every time and bang. "Condensed steam" (yes.....WATER for those of us at home) stays in the line, for whatever reason at times. This also causes a war in the pipe. Steam passing over/by cold water (condensed steam....they call it that becuase at one point, probably late spring) the system turned off too quickly leaving steam to turn to moisture too many times. will create a large bang also. Many times, leaving the vent off the side of the radiator will allow the air to escape as well as allowing venting for steam to actually "melt" the water. Another solution (although more challenging than it sounds) removing the inlet lalve to each radiator. This also lets system breathe. As spring comes along - we always start getting crazy bangs and noises. Each summer, while redoing a room, I remove radiator for refurb. This allows for water/air to leave. Each fall when system starts most of the noises stop - certainly all of the concerning/sleep inhibitive ones.

There is basically nothing correct in any of the statements you made here.

There is never a reason to "bleed air" from a steam system, the vents do this automatically on each cycle. In reality the system is always open until fully filled with steam, so it's always bleeding air in some way shape or form.
Trapped air does not create banging, banging is water being picked up by the moving steam and being slammed into a fitting, air has nothing to do with it.
There is never a reason to unhook radiators to let them breathe.
There are solutions to the problems you mention, you just haven't done any of them.

Banging is from water laying in pipes that are either sagging or sloped the wrong way. The only proper solution is to fix the slope and sags. If water is laying the system has a problem.

Radiators will drain freely on their own, as long as they are sloped correctly, on one pipe it's sloped towards the inlet pipe, on 2 pipe sloped towards the outlet.

Not to be rude, but just because you did some things and got results, doesn't mean what you did was the correct solution and you should be cautious about passing it off as such.

Ironman

cutdisc said:

OMG....yikes and no. I have had similar issues in the past. If we are talking about a steam system - simply try replacing (or even just removing for some moments to let air out of the system) the vent(s) on the side of the radiator. I had a jackhammer sort of sound so loud when i first moved in, I could hear it when I was outside the house. These noises are one of two things and one of two things ONLY. Air trapped in the system that has nowhere to go when up against steam. Steam will win every time and bang. "Condensed steam" (yes.....WATER for those of us at home) stays in the line, for whatever reason at times. This also causes a war in the pipe. Steam passing over/by cold water (condensed steam....they call it that becuase at one point, probably late spring) the system turned off too quickly leaving steam to turn to moisture too many times. will create a large bang also. Many times, leaving the vent off the side of the radiator will allow the air to escape as well as allowing venting for steam to actually "melt" the water. Another solution (although more challenging than it sounds) removing the inlet lalve to each radiator. This also lets system breathe. As spring comes along - we always start getting crazy bangs and noises. Each summer, while redoing a room, I remove radiator for refurb. This allows for water/air to leave. Each fall when system starts most of the noises stop - certainly all of the concerning/sleep inhibitive ones.

I don’t want to be unkind, but I’ve never heard more silly nonsense about a steam system than this.

You may have the best intentions in posting this, but it’s total quackery.

How does water “melt”?

Ironman

I honestly believe that post is some kind of prank.