Propane ripoff?

Nick_H

Hey. I've long been suspecting my propane service is overcharging me. I'm averaging 80 gallons of propane a month. About $250. We have solar so our home heating is an electric heat pump. The propane only runs one water heater and cooking. Granted, our house is 5000 sq. ft and does use a recirculating pump. However, I put that on a timer so it does not circulate at night. We have 5 people living here so we probably use a good amount of hot water. We also use propane for our kitchen stove and a grill that I only use about once every two weeks.

Does this sound reasonable? Or am I just being paranoid?

I don't think it's leakage. Our old tank leaked. I kept smelling it so I made them replace it. I don't smell propane anymore.

Any opinions welcome. Thanks! -N

EBEBRATT-Ed

Seems like something is amiss

80 gallons of propane x 94000 btu/gallon =7,520,000 btus/ month for hot water and cooking?

Not possible.

Get them out there and investigate something sounds wrong to me.

Gas leak
Hot water line somewhere not shut off running water

Larry Weingarten

Hello @Nick_H , Also consider going to a demand controlled recirculation system for your hot water. It will cut the heat loss from the pipes dramatically.

Yours, Larry

kcopp

Before the LP company gets thrown under the bus lets figure out what else could be the issue.
5000 ft2 home that big.
What does the hot water situation look like? Type of water heater? How far are the bathrooms from the water heater? Is the hot water piping insulated? The heatloss from the hot water piping could be huge hence the amount of heatloss could drive your LP bill through the roof.

motoguy128

Have HVAC company come in and do a shut in test when they service your heat pump.  

When I had an electric water heater my three person household could use almost $100 in electricity with recirc loop just for water heating I switched to an indirect off my steam boiler and drop by that much every month. 

I also have five or six people your use with double plus your recirc has a larger house my house is only 3600 ft.². Don’t forget laundry use and dishwasher.  

I’m going to say with an atmospheric water heater on a research loop your numbers are actually plausible.  Depends a lot on what temperature you said that tank and how well insulated recirc loop and hot water lines are if they’re not insulated .... whoa.  

motoguy128

You could also go out there and start documenting the gauge on the tank For reference take pictures of the date stamp if you can accuse them of something you better have some hard data.  

Do you have a shut off valve for the barbecue outdoors and you close every time I could see the regular control knobs on a gas grill leaking by possibly.  

On final thought depending what part of the country you’re in I seen where these water heaters are actually in the garage so your usage goes up quite a bit depending on time of year.  Seen this quite a bit in central Missouri both furnaces and water heater in the garage even though it regularly gets down below 20° and winter. 

archibald tuttle

how is the house laid out, you could put ondemand electrics in the bathrooms. the cooper wire cost would be more than the heaters (don't get me started on the whack jobs that oppose cooper mining in this country). My only caution is that I have never had the least bit of trouble with the feed switches on full size gas-fired on demands but the one Bosch electric i have running is a nightmare in that regard. constantly have to take the switch apart, but you could crowd source which brands are reliable.

Another alternative to recirc is gas fired on demand with as small home run pex tubing to each bathroom as you can get away with. Just replaced a1 and 1/4" recirced hot water manifold for 7 apartment building with 3/8 pex home runs and an ondemand heater with positive results. Although taking control of the recirc, e.g. occupancy sensors or other 'smart' control could help also.

Both as to repiping but also as to heat recovery, where do the existing pipes run, modestly conditioned crawl space or chases in the house or . . . because your heat loss during some of the year might be assisting your solar . . . kind of like incandescent light bulbs heating the house.

GroundUp

5 people in a 5k sq ft house with uninsulated recirc lines, plus cooking, 80 gallons of LP is absolutely plausible. We use about 25-30 gallons a month on DHW only for 2 people with an atmospheric 40 gallon tank and no recirc. The cost per gallon though is cause for concern, as well as how they're billing monthly. Perhaps it's a local thing, but anywhere I've seen with LP, you pay for a fill of the tank when it's empty and run it until it needs to be filled again. The only monthly billing I've seen is when they average 12 months' usage and split the bill monthly instead of having to cough up the full amount for a fill 2-3x a year. $3.12 a gallon is ludicrous as well, especially if you're on the "fill when empty" train and could always buy in July when it's $1 a gallon.

hot_rod

Any way to insulate some of that recirc? Also look into a demand system as @Larry Weingarten mentioned.
Adding an additional water heater insulation wrap would also save some $$.
3 bucks a gallon, sounds fairly expensive, look into a pre-buy, or price lock plan or get another tank and buy in the fall.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Over 7 million BTUs /month

I am not seeing it

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I'm wondering if any of your recirc or hot water line is buried in the ground. If so, that could be a really effective heat sink and big waste of energy.

Yours, Larry

GroundUp

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Over 7 million BTUs /month

I am not seeing it

80 gallons at 91,000 per gallon makes 7.28M then multiplied by 70% efficiency is barely 5M before any distribution losses. 1 hour per day with a 50 degree rise (5 showers, maybe 10 minutes each, plus laundry for 5 along with dishes, etc) makes 3.6M for a 30 day period. And that's being conservative with the hot water. Add in the cooking and distribution losses, 80 gallons is not unreasonable at all.

aperson

Those guys have a lot of calculations I don't even want to think about. When I get my propane delivered, I think it is required by law that the receipt has the meter on the truck show that it, Starts at 0 and delivers 200 gallons, Stop. This is a digital stamp on the receipt. The propane tank only holds so much, 500 gallons? Filled to 80 percent at most. I can't see them endlessly delivering propane unless it is going somwhere.