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Caleffi PRV question

ChrisJ
ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
edited April 3 in THE MAIN WALL
So I've never had one of these before recently and I think I grasp how they work for the most part.

But I recently had an issue that surprised me and I'm hoping it was a fluke. 

Im using a Caleffi 535H series prv and recently ended up with some dirt / sand running through it and when I pulled it apart it had 2 chunks of sand stuck in the seat as well as sand in the screen.

I carefully cleaned it all out at the kitchen table over a bowl using bottled water and once I was sure it was clean took it back down and assembled it.

It worked much better but still continued to slowly creep up.  My set pressure is 65 psi and the incoming pressure is 88-90.  It would creep up to the incoming pressure over 15-20 minutes.

I gave up and installed a new one which of course works fine and even more surprising the preset scale on this one is correct where my previous one always needed to be set to 75-80 psi for an actual 65 psi.

If this is typical what happens when you've got 150-200 psi coming in and they do some work on a water main?  



Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 2,869
    you should have tagged @hot_rod on this. maybe there is a rebuild kit for it?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    mattmia2 said:
    you should have tagged @hot_rod on this. maybe there is a rebuild kit for it?
    There's just a cartridge that I found but no one had it in stock.  If some sand and grit can cause permanent damage that fast I might order one to keep on hand.

    Im trying to install a strainer before it but having issues finding something fine enough.  They're all 20 mesh which seems useless.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 15,742
    If there is enough sand and grit in your incoming water, there is enough to damage the pumps and other valves in your system -- not to mention bits of your domestic water system.

    i would consider not a strainer, but a proper filter on your water supply. Yes, you'll have to change it from time to time -- but it will save a lot of grief.

    And may I ask if this is a city supply, or a well?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    If there is enough sand and grit in your incoming water, there is enough to damage the pumps and other valves in your system -- not to mention bits of your domestic water system. i would consider not a strainer, but a proper filter on your water supply. Yes, you'll have to change it from time to time -- but it will save a lot of grief. And may I ask if this is a city supply, or a well?

    Why would I have a PRV on a private well?  :)

    This was due to work so it's not normal.
    That being said, you'd recommend a filter on the city side of a prv?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 8,853
    Now that the work has een done chances are you will have no further trouble...no gauarantee
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 2,869
    if the well is sufficiently up hill...
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    Now that the work has een done chances are you will have no further trouble...no gauarantee
    My thoughts were more along the lines of random repairs to mains etc that stir up junk.   


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,753
    When debris gets down to a very small partial size they call it silica😁 Almost impossible to strain that out, you need a cartridge style filter that works down to that particular size, maybe a 5 micron filter. If a PRV creeps it usually has crud in the mechanism, a rip in the diaphragm, or wire draw. Wire draw is when a small groove has worn in the seat, similar to what you see in a faucet seat. That takes time and is caused by excessive velocity on a mis sized valve.

    2:1 is ideal, 3:1 is really stressing a PRV. If you have over 150 and want to regulate to 50, you should use a two valve , two step reduction.

    The knob on that valve has a “Geneva mechanism”. The name comes from the watch industry. So 1 turn will make a 15 psi change, so depending in where you stop in the revolution the pressure could be 50- 65. That is why we include the pressure gauge to dial-in exactly what you need. The Geneva mechanism allow you to adjust the valve with your fingers, no wrench required. It also has a pressure balance cartridge, so you are not adjusting against that high spring pressure.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    hot_rod said:
    When debris gets down to a very small partial size they call it silica😁 Almost impossible to strain that out, you need a cartridge style filter that works down to that particular size, maybe a 5 micron filter. If a PRV creeps it usually has crud in the mechanism, a rip in the diaphragm, or wire draw. Wire draw is when a small groove has worn in the seat, similar to what you see in a faucet seat. That takes time and is caused by excessive velocity on a mis sized valve. 2:1 is ideal, 3:1 is really stressing a PRV. If you have over 150 and want to regulate to 50, you should use a two valve , two step reduction. The knob on that valve has a “Geneva mechanism”. The name comes from the watch industry. So 1 turn will make a 15 psi change, so depending in where you stop in the revolution the pressure could be 50- 65. That is why we include the pressure gauge to dial-in exactly what you need. The Geneva mechanism allow you to adjust the valve with your fingers, no wrench required. It also has a pressure balance cartridge, so you are not adjusting against that high spring pressure.

    Are cartridge filters recommended on the high pressure side?  That was my concern really.   Im only seeing 90 psi usually but I have seen spikes of 110-120.

    I don't mind installing a filter to protect everything but I don't want to jump out of the pan into the fire (bursting filter housing).


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,753
    ChrisJ said:


    hot_rod said:

    When debris gets down to a very small partial size they call it silica😁 Almost impossible to strain that out, you need a cartridge style filter that works down to that particular size, maybe a 5 micron filter. If a PRV creeps it usually has crud in the mechanism, a rip in the diaphragm, or wire draw. Wire draw is when a small groove has worn in the seat, similar to what you see in a faucet seat. That takes time and is caused by excessive velocity on a mis sized valve.

    2:1 is ideal, 3:1 is really stressing a PRV. If you have over 150 and want to regulate to 50, you should use a two valve , two step reduction.

    The knob on that valve has a “Geneva mechanism”. The name comes from the watch industry. So 1 turn will make a 15 psi change, so depending in where you stop in the revolution the pressure could be 50- 65. That is why we include the pressure gauge to dial-in exactly what you need. The Geneva mechanism allow you to adjust the valve with your fingers, no wrench required. It also has a pressure balance cartridge, so you are not adjusting against that high spring pressure.

    Are cartridge filters recommended on the high pressure side?  That was my concern really.   Im only seeing 90 psi usually but I have seen spikes of 110-120.

    I don't mind installing a filter to protect everything but I don't want to jump out of the pan into the fire (bursting filter housing).




    The stainless filter housings are generally higher pressure, temperature too, make sure the filter element replacements are also. If you think it is an ongoing problem, this may be the best option.

    If it is a public water system ,others may be having the same problem? Are you at the end of a main line?
    Wonder if the provider is bound by any turbidity requirements like they are to provide "safe" water.

    If it is the result of a broken line or repair, maybe the problem goes away. After all the debris flushes through your home :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    @hot_rod Do you know if parts are available for the 535?  Aside from just an entire new cartridge?

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,753
    ChrisJ said:

    @hot_rod Do you know if parts are available for the 535?  Aside from just an entire new cartridge?

    Just a drop in cartridge as far as I know. What do you need? I tend to hoard parts and pieces :)

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    edited April 3
    hot_rod said:
    @hot_rod Do you know if parts are available for the 535?  Aside from just an entire new cartridge?

    Just a drop in cartridge as far as I know. What do you need? I tend to hoard parts and pieces :)
    Looking closer at the bad valve I see the issue.  One of those "rocks" got in the wrong place at the wrong time.  The strainer at least on this one fits very loose so a lot was able to get past it.

    This isn't repairable.  Look very closely at the plastic seat.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,753
    I believe when the cartridge is screwed in the strainer "tightens up" If not it would be rattling around inside, causing noise and wear. I'll look for my cutaway.

    I don't see how that size rock could get into the valve mechanism. Certainly it can enter the body, maybe it come out when the cartridge is removed?
    Polymer parts in valves and components are to obviously speed production, no machining required, but also to deal with all the aggressive chemicals being added to water across the world. Some water conditions turn O-rings into jelly, like you see in some of the older rubber toilet flappers on city water systems.
    Seems as soon as we find compatible polymers and o-rings another chemical is introduced into water systems, chlorine, chloramine, peroxide, iodine, multi chemical blends UV, and now chemicals to coat lead pipes in some public water systems. It's a moving target for manufacturers.

    My last 3 homes, 35 years worth, have been on our own well. Moving to Salt Lake currently but I will still add water conditioning to try and remove some of the taste and odor from the chemicals the city adds. Hopefully I can finally get away from iron filtration "Iron Curtains" that the last two homes required.

    If you go with cartridge filters for whatever ails you, go with the 20" to extend life, reduce change out period and save a few$$. The online filter shops have sales from time to time, if you don't mind their spam, that is when I load up on the cartridges and carbon filters on the drinking water taps.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    hot_rod said:
    I believe when the cartridge is screwed in the strainer "tightens up" If not it would be rattling around inside, causing noise and wear. I'll look for my cutaway. I don't see how that size rock could get into the valve mechanism. Certainly it can enter the body, maybe it come out when the cartridge is removed? Polymer parts in valves and components are to obviously speed production, no machining required, but also to deal with all the aggressive chemicals being added to water across the world. Some water conditions turn O-rings into jelly, like you see in some of the older rubber toilet flappers on city water systems. Seems as soon as we find compatible polymers and o-rings another chemical is introduced into water systems, chlorine, chloramine, peroxide, iodine, multi chemical blends UV, and now chemicals to coat lead pipes in some public water systems. It's a moving target for manufacturers. My last 3 homes, 35 years worth, have been on our own well. Moving to Salt Lake currently but I will still add water conditioning to try and remove some of the taste and odor from the chemicals the city adds. Hopefully I can finally get away from iron filtration "Iron Curtains" that the last two homes required. If you go with cartridge filters for whatever ails you, go with the 20" to extend life, reduce change out period and save a few$$. The online filter shops have sales from time to time, if you don't mind their spam, that is when I load up on the cartridges and carbon filters on the drinking water taps.

    The huge chunk on the paper towel was in the body, but I think that happened during messing around etc.

    The strainer on this one had two big dents in it, roughly 180 degrees apart. Almost like you'd get if you grab it with thumb and index finger and squeeze.  I had assumed it was just to keep it on during assembly but it could've been a mistake, I don't know.

    The strainer certainly let a bunch of larger chunks through but I don't think it was intended to have debris flow through it.  


    I'm impressed at the nice brass housing.  Its beautifully constructed.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,753
    Was the strainer distorted enough that debris could have gotten by an out of shape "egg shaped" strainer? Pretty much all the fluid needs to travel thru the strainer to get to the valve mechanism. You can see the screen, speckled detail, in this cut away drawing. I suppose a large pebble at high pressure could distort the screen, but 180° degrees apart seem unusual.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    hot_rod said:
    Was the strainer distorted enough that debris could have gotten by an out of shape "egg shaped" strainer? Pretty much all the fluid needs to travel thru the strainer to get to the valve mechanism. You can see the screen, speckled detail, in this cut away drawing. I suppose a large pebble at high pressure could distort the screen, but 180° degrees apart seem unusual.
    Oh yeah..
    Here's a picture of what it looked like. 


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,753
    I'll check with tech support in Milwaukee and Italy next week. I suppose it could be an assembly issue. I don't know if that is an automated robotic process, or by hand.
    Or some other rock force, pressure shock, distorting it.

    Sometimes when a main line is repaired and brought back on line the mains get a pressure shock. Same as when a fire hydrant is turned off too quickly causing a 300 psi pressure shock. Hard to know that unless everyone on the block had their water heater relief valves pop.

    We knew when this happened when we installed and serviced fire sprinklers, as that pressure shock would blast glycol or glycerin out of the fire sprinkler PRV discharge.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    hot_rod said:
    I'll check with tech support in Milwaukee and Italy next week. I suppose it could be an assembly issue. I don't know if that is an automated robotic process, or by hand. Or some other rock force, pressure shock, distorting it. Sometimes when a main line is repaired and brought back on line the mains get a pressure shock. Same as when a fire hydrant is turned off too quickly causing a 300 psi pressure shock. Hard to know that unless everyone on the block had their water heater relief valves pop. We knew when this happened when we installed and serviced fire sprinklers, as that pressure shock would blast glycol or glycerin out of the fire sprinkler PRV discharge.
    Please check your PMs.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    After looking at it and talking to you I'm betting a ball of dirt / sand / junk shot up the empty pipe with 90 psi behind it and hit the strainer like a bullet.


    Makes me wonder if swapping out the 20 mesh for a 60 mesh in my new strainer is wise or not.

    It won't take the abuse the coarser one will.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • sunlight33
    sunlight33 Member Posts: 301
    What about installing a big hammer arrestor at the supply to absorb pressure surge if that's a concern.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549

    What about installing a big hammer arrestor at the supply to absorb pressure surge if that's a concern.

    I don't think I'm capable of absorbing a pressure surge from the main in the road. I don't know, but I'd assume it's something like an 8" water main.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    @hot_rod what's the difference between the red silicone washers and the green ones Caleffi makes?

    What's the best way to clean the old gasket from the brass surfaces before installing new ones?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,753
    carefully remove with a knife. Sand the face if you gouge it. I've dragged them across a concrete floor to clean anny scratches :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ChrisJ
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