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Peerless 63 series cycles off when steaming up

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dschr
dschr Member Posts: 3
edited March 2021 in Strictly Steam
My son just purchased a home with steam heat. We are not sure of the past operating history.
Boiler is a Peerless 64-04L gas 383 cuft steam. The home is 3 stories with the 3rd floor a walk up attic conversion to usable space. The home has column style radiators in a one pipe configuration calculated EDR of 376. We replaced a 1" run to the attic radiator due to pitch and deterioration on the pipe. All the mains were uninsulated we have now insulated all the mains.
NOW the issue seems to be the CG450-1560 cycles the entire system off just as steam builds up. The sight glass is not surging at all but a very slow rise and fall of approx 1/2" over a few minutes occurs. At times this low ebb has the CG cycle the power off. I believe that some of my water is out into the system, it does eventually return. My 2 returns are dry with a wet leg at the near piping of the boiler. QUESTION is the cycle guard my issue (too sensitive). Or do I have a problem system functionality. My pressure is .5in diff 1 psi. And I also have a second low water cutt-off Safegard 450, mounted below the CG. Why use the CG at all. (No auto water fill system)
I appreciate the feedback

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  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
    edited March 2021
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    This is what the cyclegard does, to very safely verify you have water in the boiler. There are several models but a typical one (including yours) does a 60 second check every 15 minutes, hence the name.

    some people hate this and will tell you to replace it. But I left mine as-is on my brand new 63 and I don’t regret it.

    there’s no safer LWCO setup than this IMO. That’s why Peerless ships them this way.

    It doesn’t affect comfort nor efficiency in any way. It just bugs some people.

    there is an option to set it so that its timer resets when the call for heat starts which will prevent it from doing a check say 1 minute after firing

    now you mentioned that some of your water is out in the system. This is definitely true but how is your water level in the sight glass? It shouldn’t drop more than an inch or so. The light on the cg comes on when it’s doing its test
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    dschr
  • dschr
    dschr Member Posts: 3
    edited March 2021
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    I appreciate your reply! My sight glass only varies slightly approx 3/8 to 1/2 " below the factory marked water line. r
    the CG does its thing at times green light only not an amber light. In my mind doesn't that cause an issue due to the power cycling off for the minute or so? The head of steam now collapses and impacts how the boiler is running. The other thing why have the CG since it also has a Safegard 450 to really monitor the low water level. Why does this boiler, which is a manual water feed, require a "monitor". We always had boilers with float type LWCO that we blow down once a week or so. We manually monitor the water. I just want to know the rational behind it.

  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    The 1560 in the model number means it cycles off for 60 seconds every 15 minutes. If it doesn't consistently stay on for 15 minutes at the beginning of every cycle, there is a "SmartCycle" option to force it to start its internal clock at the beginning of every cycle. I'm attaching a copy of the manual in case they didn't leave you one.

    Re. the Cyclegard vs. Safegard, the intermittent level test is intended test the level independent of any foaming or surging that might be happening, but IMO these are conditions you shouldn't tolerate in your boiler anyway. It's a workaround for a problem that's easy to fix.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
    dschr
  • dschr
    dschr Member Posts: 3
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    Thank you. I agree with your opinion of correcting foaming/surging issues with corrective actions. Is this device required to be left on the boiler since I believe it comes as a OEM item? I do have a Safegard as the LWCO device. I am just inquiring what most people do that find this 60 sec shutdown problematic. I just want to get this system dialed in for optimum operation and find the shutdown annoying. I first thought the device was detecting a borderline water level issue. Thanks to your replies I now understand its a preset timing shutdown.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    Usually there would only be two LWCOs in a multi-family residence. But having two LWCO is a nice safety. I would keep them both.

    the steam recovers very quickly, almost immediately upon the boiler firing back up. But like I said some people hate it. 

    More important to your boiler’s health, add some treatment like 8-way to get your ph up to 10 or so to reduce corrosion 
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    dschr
  • SteamingatMohawk
    SteamingatMohawk Member Posts: 1,007
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    What's to hate? In oversized boilers, which seem to be quite common these days, it takes the place of short cycling. In an oil fired system, as discussed elsewhere, it could increase wear and tear on the burner motor, but has essentially no effect on a gas fired system.
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    Yes, that's why I left mine in place--no harm and potential for help.

    I looked up a standard honeywell gas valve and it's rated for around 200,000 cycles
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    I actually bought one to replace the old float type LWCO. The only time I really hated it was when I was trying to blance my radiators. Now it doesn't even do those intermittent level tests anymore, so it has basically reverted to being a Safgard.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • SteamingatMohawk
    SteamingatMohawk Member Posts: 1,007
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    Mine is 20+ years old, do you think I hit 200,000 cycles yet?

    Let's see. 10,000 cycles a year, 150 days heating season, 67 cycles a day x 10 minutes = 670 minutes = 11.2 hours run time average a day over those 150 days. Probably not that many hours on average.



  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    Depends. Did you connect the SmartCycle terminal to the gas valve? If I understand the operation correctly, if it's connected it cycles only when the boiler is firing. If not, it cycles continuously as long as the power is on.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • SteamingatMohawk
    SteamingatMohawk Member Posts: 1,007
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    Yes with the Smart Cycle the countdown cycles start when the boiler first fires. Other wise, the ILT can activate after only a short time, I have seen mine do it in only a minute after firing.

    I looked at the manual yesterday and on page 2 (reference posted above in this discussion) item #$ it refers to the oil burner transformer for the CG450. Later on for the CG450T it's talking about boiler with tankless coil and #6 again refers to oil burner transformer.

    I'm not sure what the manual is telling me about a gas fired boiler. It's not clear to me.

    Any advice?
  • SteamingatMohawk
    SteamingatMohawk Member Posts: 1,007
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    CG450 is 120 volts. CG400 is 24 volts.
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    I think you want the instructions at the top of page 2, where it says to "connect the 'burner' terminal to the orange burner wire located under the oil burner transformer." This should be 120v when the burner is firing. There's also a schematic at the bottom of the next page. Does this make sense, or is yours wired differently?
    Mine's 24v, gas fired, with a standing pilot, but on mine, the "burner" terminal is connected directly to the terminal on the gas valve that becomes hot (24v) when the thermostat calls for heat.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24