BXX Heating Oil Disclosure?

08GeezerGlide

Hi. Just had our older Burnham forced hot-water boiler (Carlin burner) cleaned and explained to the technician the infrequent & unpredictable burner shut-downs, which require manual reset. Although retired and available most of the time when this occurs, it is stressful when we are away. He noted that a number of oil delivery services in the area are using biofuel mixtures as high as 25-30% and this is creating issues for the older boilers. But when I did some research, it seems most, if not all the home heating oil being delivered has a percentage of biofuel. My question is whether there are any laws requiring disclosure of the maximum potential content of biofuel? And then a secondary question would be whether we have a resource to know where they are getting their delivery oil from. One specific large scale distributor and direct retailer has recently been cited and fined quite heavily for having percentages as high as 40%. we would like to change to an oil dealer with a known and validated lower content but how to find? And any side comments as to opinions on the appropriate maximum ratios running through this older boiler would be appreciated.

STEVEusaPA

Most older equipment isn't rated for much more than 5%. Newer Carlin & Beckett's and their associated pumps are rated for up to 20%.
Make sure the gaskets they are using are also bio-rated.
There's most likely no law to tell you the % yet, unless your jurisdiction mandates a minimum % of bio content.
But ask your oil company. Tell them you want no bio, if legally allowed.
I will tell you one refinery where I load, if you loaded 2% or 3% bio, it would state on the load ticket that the product may contain up to 5% bio.
The problems you may see would be leaking from seals, which in turn could be a vacuum leak, losing prime and locking out your burner.
Also bio will clean your oil tank and send it to the filter and pump strainer and eventually the nozzle.
But for my customers, after the first couple of years that problem subsided.
You won't want bio heat in an outdoor tank, without additives, nor do you want to store if for long periods of time without treating it.
But troubleshooting is troubleshooting. Many techs just want to blame bio without doing their due diligence.
Now if your delivery company gets all their fuel from one refinery or tank farm, they can easily provide you with a cut sheet of the product, where the bio stock comes from, etc.
This is why I recommend a full service provider for oil and service, even a small company like mine. The tech can't blame the fuel if their company delivered the fuel.

bucksnort

I'm surprised oil burners don't have to run DEF systems on their systems like diesel trucks now do. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't mandated in the "New Green Deal". They did it to wood burners.

Jamie Hall

bucksnort said:

I'm surprised oil burners don't have to run DEF systems on their systems like diesel trucks now do. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't mandated in the "New Green Deal". They did it to wood burners.

There's a world of difference between combustion conditions in a diesel engine -- which produce various nitrogen oxides, for which DEF is used, together with catalytic converters and EGR systems -- and continuous combustion boilers (or, for that matter, gas turbines) -- which produce very little, relatively speaking.

Robert O'Brien

"Many techs just want to blame bio without doing their due diligence." Amen!

It's become the scapegoat for every problem. ASTM D396, the spec for #2 heating oil allows up to 5% biodiesel.

STEVEusaPA

Or get condensing oil equipment that's reliable on the market. They have it in Europe, I think we only have one decent one here.
I've spent more money then I care to think about on the EGR systems on my oil truck. I remember the truck dealer telling me companies were buying up all the pre DEF chasis, even if they didn't need trucks built to spec because they knew the DEF & EGR were going to be a nightmare.
Although I'd have to admit on my 2015 KW, the inside of the exhaust pipe is clean, no soot at all, and when I hold my personal CO monitor up to it, barely registers.

STEVEusaPA

Robert O'Brien said:

"Many techs just want to blame bio without doing their due diligence." Amen!

That's my mantra, have to use it way too much on Alan's FB page.

bucksnort

Jamie Hall said:

bucksnort said:

I'm surprised oil burners don't have to run DEF systems on their systems like diesel trucks now do. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't mandated in the "New Green Deal". They did it to wood burners.

There's a world of difference between combustion conditions in a diesel engine -- which produce various nitrogen oxides, for which DEF is used, together with catalytic converters and EGR systems -- and continuous combustion boilers (or, for that matter, gas turbines) -- which produce very little, relatively speaking.

True. But the soot and sulfur allowed to be burned in boilers and put in the air is scary. I guess it was easier to enforce EPA standards on trucks instead. Low sulfur for trucks is 15 PPM sulfur while #2 is anywhere from 3000-15K sulfur. Blending in bio brings those numbers down. When they first started pushing bio in MN trucks were puking all over. They had a 5% mix and who knows if people were selling 10% or more dilution.
I can find out easily what the mix is for my oil truck. How can home fuel places get away with whatever mix they want to push off? They want to push 15% alcohol gas on us. It's bad enough at 10%.

They allowed a fat rendering plant in my town to expand 15 years ago to make bio. The plant stunk before and now it's worse. But it's cleaner! I'm just glad I live on the other side of town.

https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/10071_EDF_BottomBarrel_Ch3.pdf

Jamie Hall

" How can home fuel places get away with whatever mix they want to push off? ". Answer: they can't, at least around here, @bucksnort . It's ULSD or nothing. Most dealers do put some bio in as well, and it doesn't cause problems -- on newer equipment which has been and is kept in good order. Like ethanol in gasoline, however, it can and does cause problems for older equipment.

O course, I've never been quite certain of the trade-off between using what could be food -- there are a lot of kind of hungry folks in the world -- to fuel conspicuous consumption, but that's another matter altogether.

Robert O'Brien

bucksnort said:

Jamie Hall said:

bucksnort said:

I'm surprised oil burners don't have to run DEF systems on their systems like diesel trucks now do. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't mandated in the "New Green Deal". They did it to wood burners.

There's a world of difference between combustion conditions in a diesel engine -- which produce various nitrogen oxides, for which DEF is used, together with catalytic converters and EGR systems -- and continuous combustion boilers (or, for that matter, gas turbines) -- which produce very little, relatively speaking.

True. But the soot and sulfur allowed to be burned in boilers and put in the air is scary. I guess it was easier to enforce EPA standards on trucks instead. Low sulfur for trucks is 5 PPM sulfur while #2 is anywhere from 3000-15K sulfur. Blending in bio brings those numbers down. When they first started pushing bio in MN trucks were puking all over. They had a 5% mix and who knows if people were selling 10% or more dilution.
I can find out easily what the mix is for my oil truck. How can home fuel places get away with whatever mix they want to push off? They want to push 15% alcohol gas on us. It's bad enough at 10%.

They allowed a fat rendering plant in my town to expand 15 years ago to make bio. The plant stunk before and now it's worse. But it's cleaner! I'm just glad I live on the other side of town.

https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/10071_EDF_BottomBarrel_Ch3.pdf

The sulfur limit is 15PPM for both on/off road diesel and heating oil

bucksnort

Robert O'Brien said:

bucksnort said:

Jamie Hall said:

bucksnort said:

I'm surprised oil burners don't have to run DEF systems on their systems like diesel trucks now do. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't mandated in the "New Green Deal". They did it to wood burners.

There's a world of difference between combustion conditions in a diesel engine -- which produce various nitrogen oxides, for which DEF is used, together with catalytic converters and EGR systems -- and continuous combustion boilers (or, for that matter, gas turbines) -- which produce very little, relatively speaking.

True. But the soot and sulfur allowed to be burned in boilers and put in the air is scary. I guess it was easier to enforce EPA standards on trucks instead. Low sulfur for trucks is 5 PPM sulfur while #2 is anywhere from 3000-15K sulfur. Blending in bio brings those numbers down. When they first started pushing bio in MN trucks were puking all over. They had a 5% mix and who knows if people were selling 10% or more dilution.
I can find out easily what the mix is for my oil truck. How can home fuel places get away with whatever mix they want to push off? They want to push 15% alcohol gas on us. It's bad enough at 10%.

They allowed a fat rendering plant in my town to expand 15 years ago to make bio. The plant stunk before and now it's worse. But it's cleaner! I'm just glad I live on the other side of town.

https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/10071_EDF_BottomBarrel_Ch3.pdf

The sulfur limit is 15PPM for both on/off road diesel and heating oil

Missed the 1 in front of the 5, thanks. Yes, more and more states are mandating Ultra low sulfur to 15 this comes at a cost as truckers found out years ago. Diesel was always cheaper than gas and the sulfur kept the injection pumps happy. Maybe diluting straight fuel oil with bio is an attempt to cocktail a mix to meet these 15 ppm mandates. Is it California that wants to eliminate new gas lines because wait, NG is dirty. Well if NG is dirty, fuel oil is porn. And what cancer happens in California soon spreads to the rest of the country. If they got everybody keyed in on 15PPM why not go to 5 or 2 PPM?
https://blog.smarttouchenergy.com/ultra-low-sulfur-heating-oil-and-premium-fuels#:~:text=Normal high-sulfur heating oils,as little as 15 ppm.

Robert O'Brien

bucksnort said:

Robert O'Brien said:

bucksnort said:

Jamie Hall said:

bucksnort said:

I'm surprised oil burners don't have to run DEF systems on their systems like diesel trucks now do. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't mandated in the "New Green Deal". They did it to wood burners.

There's a world of difference between combustion conditions in a diesel engine -- which produce various nitrogen oxides, for which DEF is used, together with catalytic converters and EGR systems -- and continuous combustion boilers (or, for that matter, gas turbines) -- which produce very little, relatively speaking.

True. But the soot and sulfur allowed to be burned in boilers and put in the air is scary. I guess it was easier to enforce EPA standards on trucks instead. Low sulfur for trucks is 5 PPM sulfur while #2 is anywhere from 3000-15K sulfur. Blending in bio brings those numbers down. When they first started pushing bio in MN trucks were puking all over. They had a 5% mix and who knows if people were selling 10% or more dilution.
I can find out easily what the mix is for my oil truck. How can home fuel places get away with whatever mix they want to push off? They want to push 15% alcohol gas on us. It's bad enough at 10%.

They allowed a fat rendering plant in my town to expand 15 years ago to make bio. The plant stunk before and now it's worse. But it's cleaner! I'm just glad I live on the other side of town.

https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/10071_EDF_BottomBarrel_Ch3.pdf

The sulfur limit is 15PPM for both on/off road diesel and heating oil

Missed the 1 in front of the 5, thanks. Yes, more and more states are mandating Ultra low sulfur to 15 this comes at a cost as truckers found out years ago. Diesel was always cheaper than gas and the sulfur kept the injection pumps happy. Maybe diluting straight fuel oil with bio is an attempt to cocktail a mix to meet these 15 ppm mandates. Is it California that wants to eliminate new gas lines because wait, NG is dirty. Well if NG is dirty, fuel oil is porn. And what cancer happens in California soon spreads to the rest of the country. If they got everybody keyed in on 15PPM why not go to 5 or 2 PPM?
https://blog.smarttouchenergy.com/ultra-low-sulfur-heating-oil-and-premium-fuels#:~:text=Normal high-sulfur heating oils,as little as 15 ppm.

The difference between 15PPM and 5 PPM is 1/1000th of 1%. The objection to fossil fuels is carbon output not particulate output.