Intermittent lockouts

bobkdoga

Energy Kinetics system 2000 classic circa 1990 oil fired
beckett AFG2, new pump, new motor, tigerloop
Getting random lockouts, just installed Carlin Pro X control now got motor fault lockout. Its a new motor, I cant get to site to check further due to snowstorm but it is reset now.

I need more info of this error code, what the problem might be. If High temp aquastat trips does that trip control?

STEVEusaPA

What does a snowstorm have to do with not being able to get to the site?
Why did you randomly replace parts without doing proper diagnostics?
EK needs combustion set properly with combustion instruments.

Robert O'Brien

" If High temp aquastat trips does that trip control?"
No

bobkdoga

Combustion was checked last wednesday all was fine, tech said all settings were fine, everything was clean and tried to sell customer new boiler

Not many vans can go uphill in 20" of snow

EBEBRATT-Ed

@bobkdoga

If the motor doesn't start you should get a flame failure. Idnon't know how a cad cell control can detect a motor fault .....................wouldn't be the first time I didn't know something

STEVEusaPA

@EBEBRATT-Ed I think it’s checking amp draw on the orange wire (to the motor).
https://carlincombustion.com/wp-content/uploads/MN70200B-062819-Instructions-web.pdf

SuperTech

The puff switch will also cause the burner to lockout on that boiler. It may be poorly tuned and plugged with soot. Or you could have draft problems. That boiler (and all others) really needs to be checked using combustion test equipment to ensure proper operation. I hope you at least opened it up before swapping out parts.

pecmsg

bobkdoga said:

Combustion was checked last wednesday all was fine, tech said all settings were fine, everything was clean and tried to sell customer new boiler

Not many vans can go uphill in 20" of snow

Was a print out left on the boiler?

brnrman1

Motor Fault Lock Out, is a voltage problem the Control monitors Voltage and Amperage of the burner components and will try to give you where to look for the problem. Go into the Fault History of the Control to get more information as to what the burner was doing at time of lock out. Carlin tech support # 203-680-9433 not sure how bad the snow is in CT, but try them in an hour or so see if they are open.

Mitch
Energy Kinetics
800-323-2066

Robert O'Brien

SuperTech said:

The puff switch will also cause the burner to lockout on that boiler. It may be poorly tuned and plugged with soot. Or you could have draft problems. That boiler (and all others) really needs to be checked using combustion test equipment to ensure proper operation. I hope you at least opened it up before swapping out parts.

Wire the puff switch to the BV terminals on the 70200

brnrman1

If the Puff switch is opening you will have Recycles and the lockout message will be Flame Loss or No FLame

newinter

Can you give the error message that the control displays ? If the homeowner has released the control from lockout there should be a "Last Fault" message. Should be something like:
"Motor Safety On" or "Motor Output On"

The exact message should give you a starting point. The "Motor Safety On" or "Motor Output On" are the power relays for the motor. If you see one of these I'd bet it is a power issue. Check the controls error log entries and see what it says the power reading was when it locked out. The error log will look something like this:
CAD value: 3079230 ohms
Burn Time: 16 seconds
Error occurred 1 cycles ago
Line voltage: 101
Light time required: 15 seconds
Fault reason: No Flame ck Ign
Last state: Lockout
Motor current: Low
Ignitor current: Low
Valve current: Reading not available
Did recycle occur?: No

If the message is not one of those two, what is it?

bobkdoga

pecmsg said:

bobkdoga said:

Combustion was checked last wednesday all was fine, tech said all settings were fine, everything was clean and tried to sell customer new boiler

Not many vans can go uphill in 20" of snow

Was a print out left on the boiler?

of course not he took it with him when customer declined to new boiler

bobkdoga

brnrman1 said:

Motor Fault Lock Out, is a voltage problem the Control monitors Voltage and Amperage of the burner components and will try to give you where to look for the problem. Go into the Fault History of the Control to get more information as to what the burner was doing at time of lock out. Carlin tech support # 203-680-9433 not sure how bad the snow is in CT, but try them in an hour or so see if they are open.

Mitch
Energy Kinetics
800-323-2066

I called them today, but the 32" of snow has slowed things down a bit. One of the techs has bypassed the puff switch.

bobkdoga

I'm an electrician who was called when one of the several techs said 70200 was wired wrong. No constant power from System manager, only when burner is firing, runs through both aquastats to control. If I need to run constant power to control I can but I need to know if thats the issue.

These people seem nice and have been getting the run around so I wanted to help figure this out.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@bobkdoga

Yeah, I don't think the control can be happy without constant power

brnrman1

The 70200 is energized at the same time as the Circulator and remains powered through the thermal post purge cycle of the System Manager. The constant power requirement is for the Burner control Post Purge cycle when other Aquastats would be interrupting the B1 circuit. We still have have voltage through the limits to the control and break TT when the Heat call is satisfied.

The Frontier Gas and Resolute Gas have the constant power wired through a Double pole switch on the right hand side of the System Manager. The Ascent uses the Hydrostat that also has the constant power wired from the L1 in the Junction box on the right side of the boiler.

The short of it is the boiler is fine either way when using the System Manager. Connect the Line in with Limit in on the 70200 control. It will perform a self test every time it is energized.

pecmsg

bobkdoga said:

pecmsg said:

bobkdoga said:

Combustion was checked last wednesday all was fine, tech said all settings were fine, everything was clean and tried to sell customer new boiler

Not many vans can go uphill in 20" of snow

Was a print out left on the boiler?

of course not he took it with him when customer declined to new boiler

Then one wasn't done!

bobkdoga

pecmsg said:

bobkdoga said:

pecmsg said:

bobkdoga said:

Combustion was checked last wednesday all was fine, tech said all settings were fine, everything was clean and tried to sell customer new boiler

Not many vans can go uphill in 20" of snow

Was a print out left on the boiler?

of course not he took it with him when customer declined to new boiler

Then one wasn't done!

very possible, but from the info I have from the HO he did

bobkdoga

brnrman1 said:

The 70200 is energized at the same time as the Circulator and remains powered through the thermal post purge cycle of the System Manager. The constant power requirement is for the Burner control Post Purge cycle when other Aquastats would be interrupting the B1 circuit. We still have have voltage through the limits to the control and break TT when the Heat call is satisfied.

The Frontier Gas and Resolute Gas have the constant power wired through a Double pole switch on the right hand side of the System Manager. The Ascent uses the Hydrostat that also has the constant power wired from the L1 in the Junction box on the right side of the boiler.

The short of it is the boiler is fine either way when using the System Manager. Connect the Line in with Limit in on the 70200 control. It will perform a self test every time it is energized.

Latest info I have is it's still running from reset on monday but 70200 is only on when burner is on and error message buttons do not seem to work i.e. getting more info on error. 70200 shuts down from power loss I guess when they keep trying to get more info. This is an older unit from the 90s. K2?

So there is no need for the constant hot then, but they can only access the 70200 when the circulator is on.
The drawing left for me was marked Fig. 5A

They are getting nowhere fast.

brnrman1

Best thing to do here is get in front of the boiler and call for Tech Support Energy Kinetics 800-323-2066 or Carlin 203-680-9433.

bobkdoga

Well it has been a week since the last lockout and again at 3 am it happened again and easily reset again. Seems to be a weekly thing

carlin 70200 fault 2
motor fault on
65 cycles ago
result lockout
cad cell 9999 ohms
line volt 0
motor amps na
ignition amps na
value amps na
recycle no
burn time 0 sec
flame delay 0

brnrman1

The history of the control indicates improper voltage supplied to the Burner Control, fault message is Motor Fault On ( assuming it is actually Motor Safety on or Motor output on) and Voltage was 0. There is an electrical issue at the site causing the control to lock out. The burner was either running or trying to run at the same time the voltage was improper.
One of the only components I would suspect for this would be the burner/circulator relay (Honeywell 8225B), which can be replaced with a RIB 2421C or equal.
Is there a Generator that does a self-test once a week or something else that could cause the interruption in voltage. Do any of the other appliances in the house have an issue digital clocks having to be reset? You might need a Data Logger to monitor the voltage in the house to find this problem.

Mitch

newinter

There is not a "Motor fault on" but there are "Motor Safety On" and "Motor Output On" messages. Assuming it is one of those, the control is referencing one of the two motor power relays(one is considered safety and the other output) is out of position. Because the line voltage is showing 0, I'd agree with Mitch that the power to the control is in the middle of being shut off. When power drops like this the control continues to run for a very brief period. In this short period of time if the burner is running , recycle or standby the control can think the relays are in the wrong position because of the collapsing power. If the burner is running and the power drops, the motor control relays will turn off(due to lack of power) and the control will see that they are out of position and lockout.
It will be harder to get into the menu's when the control is not powered all the time. Wait until the control has reached flame proven(running) and then you should be able to use the menu buttons.
Any chance you can see what software version is on the control(on power up the control will display it's software version.)

bobkdoga

brnrman1 said:

The history of the control indicates improper voltage supplied to the Burner Control, fault message is Motor Fault On ( assuming it is actually Motor Safety on or Motor output on) and Voltage was 0. There is an electrical issue at the site causing the control to lock out. The burner was either running or trying to run at the same time the voltage was improper.
One of the only components I would suspect for this would be the burner/circulator relay (Honeywell 8225B), which can be replaced with a RIB 2421C or equal.
Is there a Generator that does a self-test once a week or something else that could cause the interruption in voltage. Do any of the other appliances in the house have an issue digital clocks having to be reset? You might need a Data Logger to monitor the voltage in the house to find this problem.

Mitch

power to the control goes through the main circ relay on the system manager correct? no generator on site
could main cir relay be faulty?

bobkdoga

that relay is at the top of the system manager between the transformer and the relay for HW ( which they dont use )?

bobkdoga

newinter said:

There is not a "Motor fault on" but there are "Motor Safety On" and "Motor Output On" messages. Assuming it is one of those, the control is referencing one of the two motor power relays(one is considered safety and the other output) is out of position. Because the line voltage is showing 0, I'd agree with Mitch that the power to the control is in the middle of being shut off. When power drops like this the control continues to run for a very brief period. In this short period of time if the burner is running , recycle or standby the control can think the relays are in the wrong position because of the collapsing power. If the burner is running and the power drops, the motor control relays will turn off(due to lack of power) and the control will see that they are out of position and lockout.
It will be harder to get into the menu's when the control is not powered all the time. Wait until the control has reached flame proven(running) and then you should be able to use the menu buttons.
Any chance you can see what software version is on the control(on power up the control will display it's software version.)

right, the relay drops out and the whole sequence is out of whack, but it starts right back up when reset

bobkdoga

that relay is 24v ? any chance that transformer could also be bad? I can easily replace the relay but would replacing the system manager be a better solution depending on cost?

bobkdoga

newinter said:

It will be harder to get into the menu's when the control is not powered all the time. Wait until the control has reached flame proven(running) and then you should be able to use the menu buttons.
Any chance you can see what software version is on the control(on power up the control will display it's software version.)

Once they figured out they had to access control while system is running was a big help, guy who said to install 70200 was also a help since it stored the specific info
He is also the one who said the control needed a different power source instead of through the system manager.

brnrman1

Here are several responses to your questions, @bobkdoga:
1) Yes, replace the relay. The symptoms you describe and the information from the Pro-X control all point to the main burner/circulator relay. You have a spare 8225B 24V fan relay not in use from hot water, although it is likely 30+ years old as this system was installed in 1990.
2) Not likely a transformer issue. If the transformer were bad, you would likely see other issues.
3) Not likely a manager issue. The symptoms described do not correlate with the manager, which provides a TT primary control contact and the CIRC 24 VAC output provides power to the burner (this is the coil side of the relay, and the switch side would have the collapsing power characteristic).
4) No need to add a separate power wire to the control. There is no need to have a separate power wire to the control, although it would have power for diagnostics instead of reviewing during a heat call.
I agree that this job would have been very difficult to diagnose without the Pro-X control logging – great suggestion from @newinter! Another option would be to cycle the heat call dozens of times and try to catch it in the act.

bobkdoga

brnrman1 said:

Here are several responses to your questions, @bobkdoga:
1) Yes, replace the relay. The symptoms you describe and the information from the Pro-X control all point to the main burner/circulator relay. You have a spare 8225B 24V fan relay not in use from hot water, although it is likely 30+ years old as this system was installed in 1990.
2) Not likely a transformer issue. If the transformer were bad, you would likely see other issues.
3) Not likely a manager issue. The symptoms described do not correlate with the manager, which provides a TT primary control contact and the CIRC 24 VAC output provides power to the burner (this is the coil side of the relay, and the switch side would have the collapsing power characteristic).
4) No need to add a separate power wire to the control. There is no need to have a separate power wire to the control, although it would have power for diagnostics instead of reviewing during a heat call.
I agree that this job would have been very difficult to diagnose without the Pro-X control logging – great suggestion from @newinter! Another option would be to cycle the heat call dozens of times and try to catch it in the act.

In an emergency I would switch the relays but much better off just replacing it
I'll order one from Supply House later today and we'll see what happens.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Functional-Devices-RIB2421C-Enclosed-Pilot-Relay-10-Amp-SPDT-1-HP-24-Vac-DC-120-277-Vac-Coil?gclid=Cj0KCQiAgomBBhDXARIsAFNyUqP-
TzDJJlPHI2grxtXoOSICFXsNl81rJlV4mUVlpE5aK6EF4hqIW6MaAm1AEALw_wcB

Intermittent problems can sometimes take forever to find, patience is the key

bobkdoga

A coworker had a good question about this problem, the hot leg is going through both aquastats. What in the info would show that one of those is not the issue? other than the fact that it resets easily and soon after it trips

Roger

The info will not tell you specifically which component in the hot leg could be causing the problem, just that the characteristics look like the power is collapsing. We suspect the relay based upon the tripping and resetting characteristic as you noted. Collapsing power as identified is not a common problem. 

Best,

Roger

bobkdoga

Update- Relay as been replaced and control tripped out again last night. For some reason it only happens at night
I guess the aquastats are next

Roger

@bobkdoga , please post the 70-200 control iagnostics related to this lockout. Your prior post showed that there were 65 cycles since the lockout, this one should have a smaller count if it was just last night.  Wording is important as well; in your earlier posts there was confusion over the term “motor fault on” while we assumed the control actually displayed “Motor Safety On” or “Motor Output On” - we never confirmed the actual diagnostic term.

This will allow us to determine if we are still working to resolve the same symptoms.

As mentioned prior, repeatedly cycling the thermostat call while carefully observing is another diagnostic method to resolve vs changing parts.  This would best be performed by a skilled technician who knows what sequence and sounds to expect.

In addition to the aquastats, there also is a burner switch in the circuit. 

Roger

bobkdoga

it read exactly "motor fault on"
happened again last night with temps in the 30s
one thing I noticed is that the burn cycle seems very long like at least 15 min
I will try to get more info today, they did talk to another guy who said just replace it and be done with it which was no help at all.

Hi limit is at 195 now, when boiler reaches that temp contacts open
power to burner immediately shuts off, power to control shuts off
boiler temp goes down contacts close
power back to burner and control burner should start back up if thermostat is calling for heat correct?

May seem stupid but is there any chance there is an issue with their nest thermostat rapidly calling for heat rapidly off and on that would be an issue?

Roger

What are all of the diagnostic readings from the control?

The high limit must be set to 205°F/215°F.

Please check to see if the Nest is wired correctly. It is a "power sharing" (read power stealing) thermostat that causes brief ghost calls if not wired properly. When, how, and how long it calls to charge itself is a function of the generation of Nest thermostat and the specific Nest algorithm which includes the charge state of the Nest battery.
Is it wired in one of these ways?
https://energykinetics.com/heating-professional-resources/#nest

This would really be best if the heating professional contact us directly from the job site.

bobkdoga

I will call you today if thats ok after I call Carlin.

I know in my field any "chattering" of relays or signals can cause issues that make no sense. My plan today is to remove the Nest and install a normal thermostat

Roger

That sounds ok, although all you have to do is wire the Nest correctly instead of changing it.

Roger

Just following up to close out this thread - sorry for the delay as this was resolved when @bobkdoga returned to the site shortly after the last post in February. He PM'd me with his results indicating he found that every 65 cycles or so, the operating aquastat would only pass through 47 VAC to 67 VAC causing the primary control to lock out due to low voltage. I believe he indicated that the Pro-X control also indicated low voltage in the error log.
Roger