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Changing Cleancut Pump to Non-Cleancut
swihart_art
Member Posts: 39
Hello All... I bought a used oil furnace that was only a few months old and installed it in new construction. Oil tank sits 12 feet below the Beckett AFG burner and I repiped the supply and return with new 3/8 copper and new fittings flared except for the General filter housing which has pipe threads. I applied Rectorseal to those threads. I used an older filter housing like a dummy but I digress... i was having trouble getting anything out of the bleed screw and kept trying while using the prime mode on the Genisys 7505B controller. It had a cleancut A2EA-6527 pump on it. After much troubleshooting and re-flaring etc I discovered that the fitting in the oil filter was completely clogged and I believe I burned that pump up from that restriction.
I had a suntec a2va-7116 lying around from a furnace in my shop so I installed it to see if I got different results AFTER I went a picked up a new filter housing and filter to eliminate that as any potential problems. After connecting everything back up (installed the bypass plug for 2 pipe system) the furnace fired up after some bleeding and ran in prime mode with no problems until it switched to "regular mode" and would consistently lock out after 15 seconds or so. The controller has the 15 sec pre purge but not the post (15-00 model)... so what I'm wondering is if I could either disconnect the wiring to the Valve terminals on the primary control or possibly jumper them to fool it into thinking that the solenoid is there and working. It seems weird that the furnace runs great in prime mode but then locks out every time after exactly 12 - 15 seconds once the 4 minutes is up. I do get some amount of air coming out of bleed screw and I'd consider installing a tigerloop to fix this but I'm worried that it is too high to lift on a single pipe according to their pump specs. 8 feet on a single setup and 14 on a 2 pipe. Or is the only answer to replace the cleancut with a cleancut? Any advice is much appreciated.
I had a suntec a2va-7116 lying around from a furnace in my shop so I installed it to see if I got different results AFTER I went a picked up a new filter housing and filter to eliminate that as any potential problems. After connecting everything back up (installed the bypass plug for 2 pipe system) the furnace fired up after some bleeding and ran in prime mode with no problems until it switched to "regular mode" and would consistently lock out after 15 seconds or so. The controller has the 15 sec pre purge but not the post (15-00 model)... so what I'm wondering is if I could either disconnect the wiring to the Valve terminals on the primary control or possibly jumper them to fool it into thinking that the solenoid is there and working. It seems weird that the furnace runs great in prime mode but then locks out every time after exactly 12 - 15 seconds once the 4 minutes is up. I do get some amount of air coming out of bleed screw and I'd consider installing a tigerloop to fix this but I'm worried that it is too high to lift on a single pipe according to their pump specs. 8 feet on a single setup and 14 on a 2 pipe. Or is the only answer to replace the cleancut with a cleancut? Any advice is much appreciated.
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Comments
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12' of lift and 3/8” pipe is trouble waiting to happen.
Get a 2 stage pump, single pipe, Tiger loop. Anything else isn’t going to work. Make sure you have no vacuum leaks.
Do try to do any modification to 'trick'anything.
High vacuum looks like air too.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Thanks Steve, I totally agree with the "trick" comment, I'm looking up a 2 stage pump, you helped me with this in theory months ago but we just got the duct furnace installed and I was curious if it would work... I looked at the back of the control and it does state that "Only use these terminals IF burner has a oil valve"... so I'm gonna disconnect those wires from the valve to the terminals to see if that makes it continue to run while I wait for a 2 stage pump to get here, my buddy has a tiger loop he doesn't need so I'll plumb that in later too...
Here is a great video I just found on how that controller works and I think my problem is the CAD sees flame when it shouldn't in pre purge and it locks out thinking the solenoid is stuck open
https://youtu.be/Wd7vrkUDaz4
This dude knows his stuff...0 -
@STEVEusaPA Does the 2 stage pump reduce the vacuum (outgassing / froth) compared to a single stage?...0
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There are 2 stages in the pump. this means that there are 2 sets of gears in the pump. The primary set of gears get the oil to the pump. This foamy frothy oil will settle in the body of the pump strainer compartment. The second set of gears will draw oil from the bottom of the pump strained cavity where the oil is settling. This oil is more stable and not under the high vacuum of the first set of gears. This stable oil is then pumped thru the second set of gears to provide the 100 + Pressure to burn. They are rated up to 17" vacuum so your 12" Vac is within the operating range of the 2 stage pump
You should also get a separate oil valve and use the pre-purge feature of the primary control.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Suntec-B2YA-8916-Two-Stage-Oil-Pump-3450-RPM-9938000-p
with
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Beckett-5669-Delayed-Magnetic-Solenoid-Valve-Kit-For-A-AF-AFG-Series-Oil-Burners
Otherwise, you will need a "contractor tool" to reprogram the Genisis control
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Beckett-52082U-Beckett-GeniSys-Contractor-ToolEdward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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That video is interesting to learn theory, but useless in the field. Most techs would troubleshoot and replace that control faster than it took that guy to get out all his jumpers and resistors.
The contractor tool would’ve pointed out the problem, and on the other modern primaries, they have on board diagnostics.
The control is much cheaper than labor he spent to tell you 'it’s broke'.
No one is fixing/soldering throw away, common stock parts.
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The Genisys is a POS. I'm starting to look at them the same way that I do the R8184 primary controls, I replace them with the superior Carlin and Honeywell primary's whenever possible.
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I agree with Steve on this but didn’t say how far the pump is form the tank
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I would use 1/2 lines suntec specifically says on there pump instructions that 3/8 lines should be avoided on all pumps if possible. The 2 stage pump 2 line system with 1/2 lines is the best setup for any high lift long runs the single line system with a tiger loop will also work. As you can see unless your right above the tank the single stage pump will not work. As far as the clean cut if you have a clean cut pump you don’t have a pressure check valve so if you wanted (I cannot fathom why) to get rid of Delayed oil valve you would have to use a different pump or install a check valve in place of the clean-cut delayed oil valve. The other option is a inline delayed oil valve which is used to retrofit old pumps this also would require a new pump. In conclusion I would just get a two stage clean cut pump In the proper flow rate depending on your firing rate And upgrade to half inch oil lines1
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One last thing while the chart shows a max run of 83 ft with a 2 pipe single stage 3450rpm 3gph pump and 12 ft head this means 1/2 everything (filter housing firematics fittings ect) and I don’t recommend it as the figures are based on optimum conditions and a 100psi pump pressure even a slightly restricted filter can cause issues it will run fine at first and you will have problems down the road as the filter gets dirty and the pump get worn you want to be on the low side of those numbers as a pump get worn out it can’t generate the same vacuum and the closer to these numbers you are the more offen you will have to replace the pump and change the filter ect.0
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And to answer you question about the Delayed oil valve (Clean cut) If you disconnect this the burner won’t get fuel and won’t fire
If you jump this out so it stays open and reprogram the primary to remove a pre and post purge when the burner shuts off because the pump doesn’t have a check valve and you have 12 ft of head all the oil will drain back to the tank and you’all lose prime every time the burner shuts off
it you don’t reprogram the primary the burner will continue to fire after the high limit is reached for whatever the post purge is set at this will destroy the furnace and possibly burn down your house! Don’t do it!2 -
Where does it say that?426hemi said:I would use 1/2 lines suntec specifically says on there pump instructions that 3/8 lines should be avoided on all pumps if possible...
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The tank sits immediately below the furnace, the run of lines is about 16' supply (12' up and 4 horizontal) and 16' back down with the return... I will follow the advice here and get a 2 stage pump that is cleancut so I can still use the primary but I may in the future swap the Genisys out with a honeywell or Carlin, been reading good things about these... I'm also thinking of removing the return and running the tigerloop for its advantages...
No way would I spend that much time on a $50 part but i like how the video explains to a layman like me the exact theory and operation of how the controller goes through it's "flowchart" of operation and explains how it keeps us safe against overfiring or dumping fuel into a box with no flame to be ignited later all at once...
One thing I still don't understand is why the bottom of the control states that "Don't use these terminals unless your burner has a oil valve" leading someone to think that if they decide to install a non-solenoid pump it will still work but not as efficiently / clean as the solenoid types... this would be good info to have in an emergency when I have a non-solenoid pump (which I do) laying around and can get heat until it is replaced with another cleancut... if the control cannot be reprogrammed without the tool then stating "just don't connect these terminals" is misleading or is it really that simple as replace cleancut with "regular" pump and then disconnect those leads from the control so it doesn't look to see if the solenoid closed?...0 -
I won't buy a Genysis simply because if I need their tool to program their control they should give me one.SuperTech said:The Genisys is a POS. I'm starting to look at them the same way that I do the R8184 primary controls, I replace them with the superior Carlin and Honeywell primary's whenever possible.
Same goes with the orange plastic tool. I get them at the trade show, but I'll never buy one.
Carlin & Honeywell
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STEVEusaPA said:
I would use 1/2 lines suntec specifically says on there pump instructions that 3/8 lines should be avoided on all pumps if possible...
Where does it say that?
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@426hemi I was thinking that the 7116 pump I have on hand might work because from my understanding the non cleancut pumps have the check valve built in to prevent the backflow... I was wondering if by disconnecting the terminals on the controller for the valve and installing the 7116 it would work like a traditional burner just not as good but if the controller won't work without reprogramming I guess it will act the way it does now... runs fine under "prime mode" but once it switches to regular it locks out after 15 seconds , i'm guessing because it looks for the solenoid to close but it doesn't cause it isn't there but the terminals are still hooked to the valve terminals on the controller...
ironically we have been heating our house (not the addition we are building) since the '70's with a 1725 RPM single stage burner (2 pipe) at the same lift (12' and then 20 foot run) but I notice that they installed a check valve right before the burner after the filter on the supply side and have no issues usually except for 10 years ago the pump went after decades and we replaced it with a 7116... this stuff has come a long way and I will optimize my set up as much as technology will allow but sometimes as I get older I like the simplicity of the older burners...0 -
I think it is in this bookSTEVEusaPA said:
Where does it say that?426hemi said:I would use 1/2 lines suntec specifically says on there pump instructions that 3/8 lines should be avoided on all pumps if possible...
here is why
http://www.suntec.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Installation-and-Service-Manual.pdf
On a single line piping system, you are only moving the firing rate through the fuel pipe. On a 2 line piping system, you are moving the gearset capacity. This higher flow rate results in greater friction between the moving fuel and the stationary inner walls of the pipes, valves, and fittings. The fasterthe fuel moves the greater the friction loss.
But you already knew that Steve. You just needed a reminder.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Oh yea @STEVEusaPA You can also read it in the instructions that come with the pump.
This falls under the part where we say "Steve forgot more about oil heat than you will ever know!"
That is a complement BTW
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Easy...everyone...easy...lol I asked, you answered
I saw 1/2" recommended for 2 pipe, and I understand 1/2" gives you longer max lengths.
But when it falls within tolerances, 3/8" is better and less potentially problematic than 1/2".
I'd be willing to bet, based on the OP's 4' over, 12' up, a 2 stage, pump, tiger loop, 3/8" line is fine.
Ed, they don't really define 'feasible' as it pertains to their instructions. Pretty ambiguous.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Steve... "Feasible" means: when you are so frustrated that even a Tiger loop can fix it, Start digging.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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If you have a non delay valve pump and a can program the primary for no delay valve it would work if it’s an OEM primary it may not let you! you could set the pre purge and post purge to the lowest times possible if only less than 10 seconds or so shouldn’t be an issue as an emergency fix the problem is it’s probably programmed for a 15s-5 minute post purge and this would be bad as the burner would continue to fire for the post purge cycle and depending on how the air handler is controlled it could fire for many minutes without and airflow through the heat exchanger this would be bad. I also prefer simple things but the delayed oil valve is an improvement the furnace will stay a lot cleanerswihart_art said:@426hemi I was thinking that the 7116 pump I have on hand might work because from my understanding the non cleancut pumps have the check valve built in to prevent the backflow... I was wondering if by disconnecting the terminals on the controller for the valve and installing the 7116 it would work like a traditional burner just not as good but if the controller won't work without reprogramming I guess it will act the way it does now... runs fine under "prime mode" but once it switches to regular it locks out after 15 seconds , i'm guessing because it looks for the solenoid to close but it doesn't cause it isn't there but the terminals are still hooked to the valve terminals on the controller... ironically we have been heating our house (not the addition we are building) since the '70's with a 1725 RPM single stage burner (2 pipe) at the same lift (12' and then 20 foot run) but I notice that they installed a check valve right before the burner after the filter on the supply side and have no issues usually except for 10 years ago the pump went after decades and we replaced it with a 7116... this stuff has come a long way and I will optimize my set up as much as technology will allow but sometimes as I get older I like the simplicity of the older burners...
If I were you I’d just run out and get a Honeywell primary like a r7284u-1004 as you can program it with the buttons on the unit and it can be setup for conventional or delayed oil valve there like $50 or so and any supply house has them in stock I never liked the Beckett Genisys as you need to buy a expensive programmer as a tech its one more thing to buy and carry in your bag I remember when everything you needed to fix a oil burner fit it one pocket now it’s a 40lb tool bag 🤦🏻♂️0 -
What type of new construction is this furnace providing heat for? Nothing you care too much about it seems. Like a carburetor on a Tesla.1
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HVACNUT said:
What type of new construction is this furnace providing heat for? Nothing you care too much about it seems. Like a carburetor on a Tesla.
I wasn't going to even comment on that.swihart_art said:Hello All... I bought a used oil furnace that was only a few months old and installed it in new construction...
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@426hemi I'm gonna unhook those terminals for the valve today from the primary and see if the furnace will run properly without the cleancut / replaced with the 7116... The controller is a 7505B 1500 (15 pre purge and 00 post purge), I understand what you are saying about the airflow after firing needed to keep the exchanger from getting too hot but this controller has no post purge so shouldn't be an issue... I'll report back, it has been locking out after 15 seconds of starting it (fires right up on start) because I think the controller (with wiring to the valve on the controller) is confused when it sees flame on the CAD during the first 15 seconds and locks out thinking that the solenoid is stuck open when it shouldn't be...
@HVACNUT its a 2400 sq ft addition on stilts connected to existing house with a staircase, I have been wiring, plumbing etc lately in PA and having heat would be nice, if you read the first post it helps to understand the situation, we just finished HVAC and discovered that I should have just bought a new filter housing but instead I burned up the cleancut pump not knowing that there was a clogged fitting (coupler)... yes I care about the house and I only want to use the furnace without a cleancut pump until a 2 stage gets here and I would NEVER leave the furnace powered up unless I am in there working with a fire ext nearby... the whole system will been gone over by a certified oil tech and the furnace properly tested for vacuum, nozzle pressure, smoke test etc before considering it to be safe to leave on... besides, I won't leave it run unless i'm in there for the simple fact that it is not insulated yet and even at 1.40 a gallon (nice!!) for fuel I still don't want to leave it run while I'm not in there... we have a seond oil furnace in our attic for the downstairs, we live on a floodplane so they installed a horizontal up there in the late 60's...0 -
Looks like the quickest I can get a 2 stage pump with a cleancut is early Jan from Supply House... not something that HD or Lowes has on the shelf ....lol... RE Michaels may have them but I;m not qualified to buy from them...0
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@STEVEusaPA I know sounds funny but here's the deal... I was shopping out furnaces when I saw a post on Facebook about a friend who's neighbor is Amish and they just bought a brand new house... well guess what, they're not allowed to use that type of heat according to their clan so the elders let them use it for 1 winter (2019) until a wood stove could be installed, they sold me the whole works for $500 complete with all electrical whips j boxes, tstat and a nice big air filter mounted to the side... you could look at it and know they weren't BSing anyone, clean as could be and looks new... I screwed up when I slapped a 20 year old filter housing / shut off valve inline without proper inspection and got nothing out the bleed screw... I did put a new filter in but the nipple between the valve and filter was totally clogged with sludge... live and learn, new 2 stage pump on the way, thanks for all your help...0
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I didn’t think of the pre purge issue I have never jury rigged a burner like this and I don’t recommend it. I think you should get the primary I previously recommend and then you can program for no delayed oil valve until your pump comes in.
And for your info if you have no post purge your giving up most of the benefits of having a delayed oil valve1 -
@426hemi I understand your warning and that it could be "playing with fire" ...I'm real curious to see why they put a label on that controller stating "do not connect these terminals if there is no valve" almost like it can be configured that way even without the contractor's tool...and I wonder if there isn't a parallel circuit that senses if those 2 terminals are connected or not which influences how it behaves... we'll know the answer in an hour or so when I try it...0
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Try Sid Harvey's. If it's not in stock it won't be until January.
They simply don't want you to hook anything to those terminals because if you don't program the control for no oil valve, one of those terminals will get energized. They usually come with little rubber connectors on them.
You're also going to need a pressure gauge to set pressure.
Seems like it would be quicker/easier and not much more money to just have someone come over and do it.
They can also set up the combustion/draft/smoke/excess air with proper instruments.
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So for all the world to know... Steve is right... that controller (7505 15-00) is hard coded to need the solenoid or it will lock out (I think because it sees flame in the first 15 seconds and knows it shouldn't) and like he just said will energize one (probably purple) of the leads that I taped up so they didn't arc onto ground or something else,... so there's the answer to that question... I'm gonna buy the suggested controller and keep this one around for an emergency as my system should be setup for a cleancut by mid Jan when I get the 2 stage pump...
Once I get things working as close to properly as I can I'll call my buddy Jeff Chips to bring his fancy meters and gauges out to dial me in... his son and I put all the ductwork / furnace in but they have been slammed with no heat calls for weeks here in western Pa so I went online to try to figure things out as best I can to get me some heat while I wire... I appreciate all of your help on here and wish you all Happy Holidays!!0 -
Others mentioned re-programming the control too!swihart_art said:So for all the world to know... Steve is right...
I'm showing this to my wife! Cuz she won't say it LOL.
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I guess I don't understand the problem about the Genysis control. I use them exclusively, and have had not issues with them. When I went to the Beckett class when they came out, they gave us the contractors tool, and I now actually have two. I am sure if you were to contact Beckett, they would send you one. Also, you can get a module that snaps right on the control if you want to have the display always on it. I like the fact that the homeowners don't have access to the control, so I don't put them on.
Anyway, taking the wires off the control will not change anything with the way it runs. You will need to re-program the control to shut off the pre-purge function, or put on some kind of fuel solenoid. Or, change the control to one that does not have a purge function.
Rick0 -
I am with @STEVEusaPA , 2 stage pump, one pipe w/tiger loop - done. Given the length and lift, 3/8 is acceptable.
As far as primary - I would choose a R7284U when ever given a choice. I would leave any working primary in place.0 -
Ok Ok I have done this as a temporary fix. If you have an R8184G control that is better than this.
if not...
Put the motor wire on the purple Valve terminal of the Beckett Genesis control, until the new pump arrives.
the motor won't run until the "Valve" terminal is energized
The contacts should hold up
now there will not be a flame before the "Valve" terminal is energized.Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Kudos to all that pointed at the primary and Kudos to all here who helped, Steve may have been right and he's right again by pointing out that he wasn't the only one who was right... lol... no worries Steve, my wife would never say it either!!...
So here's an update... I hesitated to call my HVAC friend who owns his own business since he's so busy, but I thought yesterday what the heck... I'll give him a call... so even though he was out on a call I asked if he had any cleancut pumps lying around and he says I got one in my truck right now for a spare!! So he stopped down later and we slapped that badboy in there and BINGO!!... everything works as it should and we dial it in real quick, even though it is only a single stage it is working well, flame is steady and pressure gauge is not bouncing at all... I'll still put the 2 stage on when it gets here but apparently with a 2 pipe system that lift is no problem at least for a new pump... got to wire in the warmth last night...
I also would like to give Kudos to @EdTheHeaterMan for that workaround that he mentioned which is the type of info I love to store in the brain archive for later / how to get that no solenoid pump to work with that controller... great idea!!.. CAD sees no light cause the motor isn't spinning yet!! GENIUS!!... now I have a another spare pump and know how to implement it if necessary or help someone else in the same situation...
Thanks again and hope every has a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!0 -
Actually, the fact that you need a special tool to re-program a GeniSys is the greatest argument in its favor. It helps keep homeowners from changing the programming. This is why the GeniSys is our standard oil primary.STEVEusaPA said:
I won't buy a Genysis simply because if I need their tool to program their control they should give me one.SuperTech said:The Genisys is a POS. I'm starting to look at them the same way that I do the R8184 primary controls, I replace them with the superior Carlin and Honeywell primary's whenever possible.
Same goes with the orange plastic tool. I get them at the trade show, but I'll never buy one.
Carlin & HoneywellAll Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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Did you ever notice that oil nozzles and oil line sizing is based on #2 oil with a 57 SSU viscosity (flow rate) This would be oil heated to 100 degrees. 50 degree oil has a SSU of 100 or much lower flow rate. Sizing tight can cause problems.0
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Well, so much equipment is oversized anyway................captainco said:Did you ever notice that oil nozzles and oil line sizing is based on #2 oil with a 57 SSU viscosity (flow rate) This would be oil heated to 100 degrees. 50 degree oil has a SSU of 100 or much lower flow rate. Sizing tight can cause problems.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
@swihart_art please remember that whenever you replace the oil pump the pump pressure needs to be set using a pump pressure gauge. Its highly unlikely that the pump pressure is set to what is needed for your burner. A combustion analysis should also be performed after replacing the pump.1
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@SuperTech we connected a pressure gauge and set it for 120 psi as spec'd by the mfg with a .75 80* A nozzle... puts out 90,000 BTU, suntech pumps (at least this one) came at 100 from the factory, we dialed the air bands in with his meters etc and it runs great!!...
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And people wonder why two pipe 3/8" fuel system on outside above ground tanks fail when it gets really cold!Steamhead said:
Well, so much equipment is oversized anyway................captainco said:Did you ever notice that oil nozzles and oil line sizing is based on #2 oil with a 57 SSU viscosity (flow rate) This would be oil heated to 100 degrees. 50 degree oil has a SSU of 100 or much lower flow rate. Sizing tight can cause problems.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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