new riello pump problem

archibald tuttle

as in brand new pump on brand new R40 F5 burner, won't pump. no oil, no froth, no nothing out the bleeder

spent an hour with tech support. learned a good deal about taking the burner apart cause this is the first one i've seen and I had to

check the screen (clean as whistle), this was not a case of junk in the line clogging the screen

fuel solenoid, both coils ohm within specs. weird, though, that it's got 3 wires meaning 2 coils I think. i'm suspicious of this solenoid. when removed it only moves like a 32nd of an inch. they say it is supposed to move freely. well it does move freely for a 32nd of an inch, maybe a shy 1/16. Now maybe that is a small amount of movement but just enough to admit high pressure oil flow. But I couldn't get straight from tech support if there are 3 wires to the solenoid because it's supposed to have 2-stage operation. the burner has lower pressure operation in prepurge and higher after ignition, but I'm not clear if that is implemented through the solenoid. If it is, i can't believe that there can be two stages within the minimal amount of movement I was obtaining, but i 'm glad to stand corrected.

pump, turns freely, plastic adapter/couple looks fine. no bypass plug was installed. checked that.

this is set up one line. the oil is same level as burner when the tank is empty, but the tank is full. The line is overhead. so it needed maybe three feet of lift over the level of the oil in the tank to prime. when i saw no oil, i grabbed a 5 gallon can from the truck and stuck the feed line right in the can with about 6 piping feet of the boiler. still nothing. blew backwards through the line into the can. it is clean, not blocked.

this is the same piping that was running a burnham just fine. all flare connections with the ridgid roll flare.

they sent me back to sid's to replace to the pump after an hour of running this down. i forgot to ask if the pump comes with the solenoid. i sent the owner to get it while i'm on another job. i called him and told him if it doesn't have the solenoid get another.

but any hints or experience would be appreciated.

my pressure tester doesn't test vaccuum. i know there is a fancier version that does, but i literally have never had this problem with any burner. maybe the screen a little clogged or a small air leak so i was getting clean stream with out froth of bubbles but never nothing unless the coupler had the rubber teeth just sheared off.

thanks

concerned in exeter.

EdTheHeaterMan

Riello fuel units are famous for their inability to prime if there is any lift involved. Can you charge the fuel line to get gravity flow via siphon?

I had a customer that was a COD oil delivery type and would run out of oil regularly. The tank was outside above ground and the bottom of the tank was 7 ft above the fuel pump. The tank had a problem with tank bottom deposits and was converted to a top feed, single pipe. The fuel oil driver would try to prime the burner to no avail. I would then get the call, and I would use a hand-operated pump to prime the fuel line, Once the line was primed the fuel unit would work just fine. You need the gears in the pump to be wet.

archibald tuttle

am i not going to be able to siphon out of a foot high fuel can? if I could get it running out of the can I could then use the running pump to fill the fuel line by cracking the valve. i put in a tee for this purpose because i don't like the over head line but it didn't occur to me that it couldn't such out of 5 gallon can sitting on a milk crate next to the boiler?

other option is to get a 12 V fuel pump with pipe connections that I can put in the line after the filters and then i could use a battery to charge the line.

EdTheHeaterMan

Can you get the gears wet with a bottle of motor oil used for lubricating those old B&G 100 circulator bearing assemblies and motors? I used a flexible tube oiler for that but a can of 3 in 1 oil will do the job. If you have a spray can of WD-40, that will also work. open the suction line and fill the line with enough oil to get the gears wet. Once the gears are wet the suction will increase enough to draw the fuel up and over from the tank.

EdTheHeaterMan

NOT RECOMMENDED: "Do not do this at home"

One time I did not have the hand pump to prime the burner on the above-mentioned customer. I took the soot vac from the truck and put the hose on the outlet of the Vacuum. I placed the vac hose in the vent pipe on the tank creating a positive pressure in the tank. This positive pressure helped the Riello pump to get the oil over the hump in the top feed fuel line. once the pump oil was in siphon mode the fuel pump was able to maintain the fuel flow.

Just need to get those gears wet.

EdTheHeaterMan

Priming the standard Riello pump is not affected by the solenoid valve. You can run the pump all day thru the bleed port and never open the valve to the nozzle assembly. You will fill up a number of 5-gallon pails, but the closed solenoid won't keep the fuel from priming.

You got to get those gears wet!

archibald tuttle

@EdTheHeaterMan

love the vac thing man!

thanks for talking me down.

new pump took care of problem. i haven't tried the lift from the tank but started out of a can no problem!

i think they don't recommend that at home either but that is what i do when someone runs out because a clean can with 5 gallons will run a while. 5 or 10 gallons at the bottom of a dirty tank, fugghedaboudit

HVACNUT

The new oil in the new pump solved the problem. The other pump was bone dry and couldn't get off the ground. 
As @EdTheHeaterMan mentioned, in some very intriguing ways mind you, a Riello pump needs oil pretty quick. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Motor oil is the best. I used to do that all the time.

One time I had nothing to prime a pump with and I had to get the heat on.

Orange juice was all I had, it won't burn but primed the pump.

Tropicana I think. With pulp

Big Ed_4

I beleave the third wire sends an signal to the control box ..

EdTheHeaterMan

You may need to change the nozzle if the pulp gets past the bronze sintered strainer @EBEBRATT-Ed

SuperTech

The first time I came across a Riello with an overhead line it had me ready to pull my hair out. I wasn't familiar with how much more difficult it can be to prime a Riello with an overhead line or underground tank compared to a Beckett or Carlin. I was also trying to get it primed by resetting the burner rather than jumping out the motor.  I didn't have a chance of getting the burner restarted like that. I now know why a lot of installation instructions specify gravity feed to Riello burners.  I wish I knew about some of the tricks mentioned here, it would have saved me some headaches that day.
@EBEBRATT-Ed and @EdTheHeaterMan thank you for sharing some good tips. I might not ever use the Tropicana trick but I always have a zoom spout oiler on the van.

STEVEusaPA

Here’s a good book about everything fuel pumps.
http://www.firedragonent.com/school-store.html