Hot Water Panel Radiator For Basement?

Redrum

Hi, I could use a second opinion, first the background:
1600 sg ft Cape Cod House, 2 story with a small heated porch/mud room. Western New York (real winter)
Buderus boiler with 5 zones, downstairs, upstairs, porch, basement, hot water heater.
Upstairs, downstairs, basement are baseboard radiators, back porch is a panel radiator.

The question is the basement heat. The previous owner had "finished" the basement with 2x2 walls and fiberglass insulation, which has gotten soggy due to water seepage issues. I am now addressing the water issue, and have ripped out all of the old walls revealing the poured concrete foundation.

What is left right now is 20' of baseboard just sitting on the floor. One choice would be to just eliminate the zone. The other choice...

The basement will not be a living space, rather it's storage and my workshop and well as the mechanical room. I rarely ever turn the basement heat on, as it remains above 60 F most of the time, and that is comfortable for me when I am working down there. I think the basement gets much of it's "heat" from the copper piping (1") that runs overhead for the other zones.

But, when it gets really cold, say <20F for a prolonged time, which it does, the temp can drop to, say 55F. Normally I would turn on the basement heat during this period.

I really want to keep things off the floor. My thought is to add a panel radiator to the middle of one of the walls in the basement. I used an online BTU calendar, inputed 30x24x7' high, and a desired temperature rise of 10 degrees (say 55->65). The result was about 6,000-7,000 BTU. I was thinking of using, say a 8,000 BTU+ panel radiator, or, even 2 5,000 BTU heaters spaced apart.

Does this seam reasonable? Am I missing something? I really like the panel radiator that I used in the back porch, it does a nice job "supplementing" the main house heat (porch is always open to the house).

One other question would be the copper piping, is it ok to run it strapped to the concrete wall (maybe protect it?), or should I run along the upper floor joists and drop down to the radiator(s)?

Thanks for any thoughts.
Jim

Ironman

Panel rads work great if piped and controlled correctly. They only have 1/2” connections, so you don’t wanna put them in series on a 3/4” loop. You also need to avoid creating a micro zone which will cause the boiler to short cycle.

I would not strap the pipes to an uninsulated concrete wall.

Buderus has a design manual for their panel rads which should give you all the info you need. You’ll have to search the web or Bosch’s HVAC site for it.

Redrum

Thanks Bob,
The basement is it's own zone. Currently 1", but I would reduce it down to 1/2" at the valve and return manifold.

Good point on the non insulated wall, I will be adding some type of insulation down to below the frost line, but I haven't thought that through yet. I need to get an idea what the basement water seepage guys want to do fist.

I think I am more comfortable running along the joists and dropping down. I may fashion a cover of sorts to protect the pipe.

Does the BTU/size calculation make sense to you? I realize that it won't provide for the even temp distribution that you would want in a living space, but for a workshop it should be fine.

I think that this is the design guide you were referring to, I'll run the numbers:
https://www.bosch-climate.us/files/201007122122580.Panel_radiator_design_manual_12.2009.pdf

Your comment on the micro zone...what factors come into play? The thermostat would be located a distance away and it has temp hysteresis built in (I think). What else do I need to consider?

Jim

Ironman

Yes, that's the manual.
IDK what the actual heat loss would be without doing a load calc like a Manual J. SlantFin has a free app you can download that's pretty accurate.

Also, things like exposed radiator piping, its size and temp factor in.

As far as a micro zone, it depends on the size of the smallest connected zone vs. the minimum output of the boiler, if the system is high, medium or low mass, etc.

If you post some pics of the boiler, its near piping, pumps and controls, I'd have a better grasp of things.

Redrum

When I added the panel radiator to the back porch in 2016, it created a "whoosh" when the panel zone (1/2) was on, and a valve for another (1" with 3/4" baseboard) would close. This is the thread that I started to ask for the forum's help, it has allot of info on my system: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/157729/hydronic-system-whoosh-noise/p1

The boiler is a Buderus GA124, and like I said about 1600 sq ft (plus basement). Zones - Main floor about 900 sq ft, upstairs about 600 sq ft, porch about 100 sq ft. basement is about 900 sq ft, but like I said I normally don't heat it.

The zones are pretty well balanced, but I think the upstairs doesn't run as often or as long due to the heated space below, and it seems like their is alot of baseboard.

Here are a couple pictures from the thread:
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/28/f1f84b684b8b0895e00dbd8752113b.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/69/05f81e5414a75400da9484f282715c.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/c9/7379f507b3edf53a1caec920075c37.jpg

The piping layout isn't very clear but for all zones except basement, it all runs on the bottom or the first floor floor joints in the basement, then vertical to the baseboards, horizontal where possible, then down to the basement.

The piping in the basement right now is a bit of a hack job, and all 1", so I would redo from the manifolds to the panel.

Not sure if I answered your question about what I have...

By the way, I never got rid of the woosh, I just learned to live with it. I think I have to change out the zone valves to fix it, and eh....

Jim

Ironman

Pics of the boiler itself and near piping and pump? What size is the GA 124?

Ironman

I just read your very lengthy previous post. I think Harvey had the easiest solution and it's what I'd recommend for the panel rad's you're planning on adding in the basement. The funny thing is I was gonna suggest this for eliminating the micro zone before reading the thread.

Did you try what Harvey recommended?



"Harvey Ramer said:
I don't have the time for a full explanation right now, but if you want your problem solved in short order use the TRV and disconnect that thermostat and leave the zone valve open (panel rad circuit).
Hi Harvey; - you are the pro, and I am not, so I am sure you are right, but...

I had always thought that TRV's are used with panels in parallel where the trv slowly closes off the panels that don't need to heat, while allowing others to continue to heat, to balance the heat in the room (e.g. more heat in front of windows, less in areas where the sun is shining in).

In order to keep my zone open, and use a trv to choke off the water when the room comes to temp, I would need something to start the pump if it was the only zone needing heat. Also, if it pumped continuously, when it did choke the water off, it would have to bypass somehow. I had thought that in these applications that (somehow) the boiler senses the temperature comming back through a bypass to be near equal to going out, and then shuts off the pump. But, my experience in this area is only through reading.

Finally, the panel zone would still be open when the TRV is open, and when I turned off another zone, I think I would have the whoosh.

I think your suggestion would be appropriate if the panel was in parallel to say the first floor zone, where the panel just warms a cold spot, but it's not the case, the panel is in a small sun room that could be shut off from the main floor.

If I still don't get it, I'm sorry.

Jim
No problem. I have some time now so I'll try to explain how it works. G

First of all, you have noted that the loudest noise that you wish to get rid of takes place only when there are only 2 active zones. One of them being the panel rad piped in 1/2" and 1 of them being another zone piped in 1". As suggested by you, the noise happens when the 1" zone closes while the panel rad zone remains open.
That is completely understandable since the panel rad is piped in 1/2" and is a higher head loss circuit than the 1" zones. As the 1" zone closes, the pressure builds rapidly on the back side of the zone valve causing the hissing sound. The piping amplifies and carries the sound through the house.

So here's what I have been suggesting. And it is noteworthy that this will be the least expensive, easiest and quickest fix. Best of all you won't get wet and it'll only take 5 minutes.
Once more, unscrew the shut off cap from the panel rad and in it's place screw on the TRV that is built for the rad. They are very inexpensive. On the respective zone valve, all you really need to do is unplug the 2 wiring terminal connections from the actuator. Then manually open the valve and leave it open.

Here is how it will function. The TRV will open and close based on the actual room temperature, allowing flow or restricting it. That room will not send an electronic signal to the boiler and pump when there is a heat demand. It will only get heat when any one of the other zones is active. As a rule, if you have a 3-4 zone system running on odr, the percentage of time that at least one of the electronically controlled zones is active, is quite enough time to satisfy the heating demands of the TRV controlled zone. Another nice feature is that in effect, it increases the size of any given zone because it scarfs btu's off the boiler when one of those other zones calls. It can increase run times and reduce short cycling, which is good.

In your application, your whoosh noise should go away because you will no longer have the situation where a 1" zone closes against the 1/2" zone while the pump continues to run. Remember, the TRV cannot turn on the boiler or pump.

Will it work you ask? Your engineering mind refutes it. The fact remains, It does work fantastically, I have been doing it for a number of years to address micro zones and other unique situations. Never had a complaint.

Humor me and give it a wxhirl."

Redrum

one other picture I wanted to add. This is the panel radiator that I added to the back porch/mud room when I made it a 4 season room. As you can see the panel is higher up on the wall than is maybe ideal. I chose to put it here to keep it away from the floor (kicking), but also because the supply lines exit the house, enter the panel, just above the house foundation (the floor at the top of the stairs is built on the foundation level, the entrance is a cutout. The back porch is on a concrete pad).

I'd like to do the same thing in the basement, maybe a bit lower, just to keep things off the floor. I know it's not ideal from a "heat rises" perspective, but it has worked pretty well in the porch

Jim

Redrum

Hi Bob;
revisiting the past . I never did try the TRV valve. I'm not sure why, but I am thinking that I would live with the woosh until spring, then change the system over summer. Then that never happened. Then I got used to it.

I think the only thing that had me hesitate is that I was depending on another zone to be active so that heating could occur if the panel TRV wanted it. I think also it didn't allow me to easily (in mind) be able to turn off a zone, but maybe I don't have to if the TRV is set properly. I had just built the porch as a 4 season room, and not really experimented with the usage conditions yet (e.g. if the door open to the house, set the thermostat so the little panel isn't trying to heat the house, have it be cooler, so if anything, the house helps heat the porch).

I know for the basement I'll want to be able to turn the heat on and off. What I have right now is off most of the time. Only in the dead of winter will the basement drop a few degrees below 60. If I am not going to be working down there, I don't care if it's 55. If I do, I can just turn the thermostat on. If I used TRV's I imagine I could do the same thing with the zone valve or a ball valve in line...

Interesting....thank you!
Jim

Ironman

You just turn the dial on the TRV down to lower the temp or shut it off.

If you install a Grundfos Alpha circ (as suggested in the previous thread) and TRVs on the panel rads, you wouldn't need a thermostat or zone valve on those zones. You could simply leave the stat turned up higher if you do this and you wouldn't have to do any control mods.

Ironman

The TRVs are inexpensive and they simply twist right on to the panel rad where now the plastic knob is.

Redrum

Buderus GA124-23/4 - looks like 94,000 BTU. Here is a pic of the boiler and local piping. Sorry it's not straight on, narrow room. The pump is behind the boiler, you can see the pump piping on the RH of the picture. In the distance is the piping that goes to the current baseboard. It travels below the floor joist to the far wall, then down, then to the left. The main basement area is to the left.

Jim

Redrum

pump....

Redrum

Hi Bob,

Thank you for the advice and stirring up old memories. Back when I was trying to solve the "whoosh" we did try the Grundfos circ (see pic), but, by itself, it did not help, and was noiser than the taco pump. I could hear the grundfos whine in the room above the boiler, so I had the contractor put the taco back. Yes, I did not try the TRV. I don't think I had the use case for the back porch figured out in my head, and probably just didn't think it through.


Back to my original inquiry, I will do the calculations for the panel radiator and reach out to Buderus if necessary. I think one or two panels on wall where the baseboards currently are will do what I am looking for, occasional use to raise the temperature 5 degrees or so. I realize it will be colder on the other side of the basement. But, this is the way I have used the space with the baseboards for years. Plus, I already have the zone in the manifolds (supply/return), and the zone valve.

I will try the TRV(s) for this application, it makes sense. When I added the panel to the back porch I put ball valves with drains in line in case I needed to drain just that zone to let the porch go cold. Maybe I'll add ball valves to this circuit too, haven't thought it through...

While I am getting the TRV, I'll get one for the porch and try that out too. In thinking about it, I think I just didn't like the thought of not having a temp setting like you do on a stat, maybe that's why I hesitated...

Thanks for your thoughts,
Jim

Ironman

Not a Grundfos ups15-58, but a Grundfos ALPHA (15-55) which is a smart delta P circulator that senses when TRVs open and close and adjusts its speed accordingly.

You're confusing two different pumps.

This:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Grundfos-99163906-ALPHA2-15-55F-LC-Cast-Iron-Circulator-Pump-w-Line-Cord

Redrum

ok, yes, my memory of the pump change(s) was wrong. I reread the woosh thread. I originally had the 3 speed Grundfoss. I had my contractor read the thread and he decided to try a new circulator before changing out valves. I do remember the first one that didn't help and had a whine, and it got changed out for the taco 007 which didn't improve things from a woosh perspective. There must be another pump lying around in my basement as they never took their swapped out parts.

I also remember, at the time, not being comfortable with the TRV solution, mostly from the heat on/off, temp setting and reading that a stat gets you.

The plan was to swap out the zone valves as recommended, but I couldn't hook up with them again (small outfit+winter) and then summer came.

Thanks for taking the time to revisit that old thread and commenting. Regarding the panel radiator(s) in the basement, here's what I am planning:

1) The basement has a zone valve and a stat already, I'll leave them in place. I will decide between two smaller panels (say 5k BTU each) vs one larger (about 10kBTU), and install them with TRV's and ball valves on the supply/return and a low point drain to be able to drain the panel and piping (good idea?).

2) I'll buy a TRV for the back porch panel.

3) Since I am going to have the system down, I'll figure out the right flange connection and get the "smart" circulator that you recommend, would that be the Alpha you posted the link to?

Then with the new circ and the TRV's, I should be able to have a fall back elimination of the "woosh". I still would like to have stat control of the back porch, but the basement not as much. I'll still have the manually opened zv's and disconnected stats, so I can always try it that way.

Remaining questions/confirmations on the panels:

1) I imagine that I have to check with my local inspector, but are people now using Pex - PAP? Or, since the rest of the house is copper would you just stick with that? I am an experienced sweater .

2) I plan on installing the panel above the floor like the back porch, say, 2'. I know that isn't idea, but any issues with this? It works fine in the back porch, but probably looses some efficiency.

3) for the vertical run to the panels, I don't want to strap just to concrete, so I'll probably install a stringer (say 1x4) between the concrete and the piping. Are there any neat products out there, like standoffs to use instead of the wood?

Thanks;
Jim