Surging
Damian
Comments
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Beware the dosage of water treatments. They will cause surging. Try like 1/4 - 1/3 of the directed amount
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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Personally I would skip the Surgemaster, drain the boiler, skim it again (I assume you are using the top skim port, next to your pigtail) slowly. The trickle out of that tapping should be no more than the diameter of a pencil (so as to keep the surface of the water, in the boiler stable). Skim for an hour or so, if you can run a hose from the skim port over to a floor drain. When you are done, lower the water level back down to its normal level and, if you have them, add one or two Steamaster tablets, nothing else. If you don't have steamaster tablets, add nothing. Those other chemicals tend to cause foaming and/or surging.
The fact you had the radiators refinished shouldn't matter. They are refinished on the outside, not the inside.
I don't like those Cyclegard LWCO's either. It has nothing to do with the surging, they just shorten the life of your gas valve, probably by half or more because of the number of times they start and stop the boiler. The Safegard is a better option.0 -
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🤷🏻♂️
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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nicholas bonham-carter said:Agreed Fred!!
also keep the pressure down, and MAIN venting up.—NBC1 -
ethicalpaul said:Beware the dosage of water treatments. They will cause surging. Try like 1/4 - 1/3 of the directed amount0
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Fred said:Personally I would skip the Surgemaster, drain the boiler, skim it again (I assume you are using the top skim port, next to your pigtail) slowly. The trickle out of that tapping should be no more than the diameter of a pencil (so as to keep the surface of the water, in the boiler stable). Skim for an hour or so, if you can run a hose from the skim port over to a floor drain. When you are done, lower the water level back down to its normal level and, if you have them, add one or two Steamaster tablets, nothing else. If you don't have steamaster tablets, add nothing. Those other chemicals tend to cause foaming and/or surging. The fact you had the radiators refinished shouldn't matter. They are refinished on the outside, not the inside. I don't like those Cyclegard LWCO's either. It has nothing to do with the surging, they just shorten the life of your gas valve, probably by half or more because of the number of times they start and stop the boiler. The Safegard is a better option.
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Because they are in the water treatment selling businessfxrgrunt said:
I wonder why they just dont give a better dosage considering its am issue.NJ Steam Homeowner.
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To be clear I should drain first and then skim after refilling vs skimming first? I have a T on the other side of the boiler which I made a tap with ball valve for skimming. I dont have steamamaster tablets. Are they worth getting? The radiators were dipped prior to sandblasting and being coated so stuff definitely hit the inside.
I skim first, then drain if I need to. I have the tablets but I've never used them yet. I just use the 8-way liquid.NJ Steam Homeowner.
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I have mentioned this before, those side tapped boilers may have a reduced internal header....(probably one reason why you should use both side taps).
If you skim out of the 2 1/2" you may only have the water draining out of the closest section.
For this I added a 2 1/2" X 1 1/2" reducing fitting to get the entire boiler water to rise above the sections.
If you remove the plug and look inside you see what I mean.1 -
You've already recently drained and skimmed. I would skim first then drain and refill but the critical issue is skimming well, slow and long enough to ensure you get all the oils out of the boiler.
I use the Steamaster tablets. I think they are worth it but I usually only add two tablets at the beginning of the heating season. The bottle suggests 4 or 5 times that amount but that amount also causes a very unstable water line.1 -
JUGHNE said:I have mentioned this before, those side tapped boilers may have a reduced internal header....(probably one reason why you should use both side taps). If you skim out of the 2 1/2" you may only have the water draining out of the closest section. For this I added a 2 1/2" X 1 1/2" reducing fitting to get the entire boiler water to rise above the sections. If you remove the plug and look inside you see what I mean.
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Fred said:You've already recently drained and skimmed. I would skim first then drain and refill but the critical issue is skimming well, slow and long enough to ensure you get all the oils out of the boiler. I use the Steamaster tablets. I think they are worth it but I usually only add two tablets at the beginning of the heating season. The bottle suggests 4 or 5 times that amount but that amount also causes a very unstable water line.1
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Your setup looks good.
I put an elbow on mine at the T so that I could adjust the exit height of the water (and it also allows me to use the skim port to put stuff in the boiler easily), but that's not necessary.
That skim rate looks good in your photo. I go maybe a touch faster, but generally slower is better anyway.
Eventually all the treatment will get flushed out in a long skim but honestly I wouldn't worry too much about the color--I think it's mostly just marketing shenanigans with maybe a little PH marker thrown in or something.
Use litmus paper or a ph meter to end up around 8-9ph and you'll be good. Lots of people in the forum are skimming right now!NJ Steam Homeowner.
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I am not sure if the red is from the chemical you put in the boiler or, as you said, if they dipped your radiators in some kind of acid bath when refinishing them. If the latter is the case, you may not get clear water until all the residual cleaning agent, from the refinishing process has washed back into the boiler. I would think that should happen after a week or two of full heating cycles.
Skim again, slowly, drain the boiler and refill it, don't add anything to the water and watch it for the next couple weeks. If you see the water turn red, drain the boiler every two or three days until the red fades away. Skimming and draining is intended to remove what is in the boiler. You may have residue out in the system that just needs to wash back into the boiler.1 -
Fred said:I am not sure if the red is from the chemical you put in the boiler or, as you said, if they dipped your radiators in some kind of acid bath when refinishing them. If the latter is the case, you may not get clear water until all the residual cleaning agent, from the refinishing process has washed back into the boiler. I would think that should happen after a week or two of full heating cycles. Skim again, slowly, drain the boiler and refill it, don't add anything to the water and watch it for the next couple weeks. If you see the water turn red, drain the boiler every two or three days until the red fades away. Skimming and draining is intended to remove what is in the boiler. You may have residue out in the system that just needs to wash back into the boiler.0
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ethicalpaul said:Your setup looks good. I put an elbow on mine at the T so that I could adjust the exit height of the water (and it also allows me to use the skim port to put stuff in the boiler easily), but that's not necessary. That skim rate looks good in your photo. I go maybe a touch faster, but generally slower is better anyway. Eventually all the treatment will get flushed out in a long skim but honestly I wouldn't worry too much about the color--I think it's mostly just marketing shenanigans with maybe a little PH marker thrown in or something. Use litmus paper or a ph meter to end up around 8-9ph and you'll be good. Lots of people in the forum are skimming right now!1
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Sure. I also have a tee on it to let me pour stuff in, then I wash it down with some water.During a skim I look into the tee to see the gunk sail by.
Also while skimming the skim pipe would be more horizontal, but still slightly tilted upNJ Steam Homeowner.
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ethicalpaul said:Sure. I also have a tee on it to let me pour stuff in, then I wash it down with some water.During a skim I look into the tee to see the gunk sail by.
Also while skimming the skim pipe would be more horizontal, but still slightly tilted up0 -
That's right, but in my case, I think my boiler design doesn't require that--I'm using the factory skim port so I think it's at the correct height already.
But I used to have a Utica boiler tapped on one side just exactly like yours, and I used this same pipe there to help get the height up a bit, and it was likely the excellent @JUGHNE who advised me to do so!
And to be real clear, this angle pictured is too high for good skimming because if the water's escape is higher than the exit port, then the oils will be floating above the port and will never escape.
This is the angle I use for dumping stuff into the boiler.NJ Steam Homeowner.
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ethicalpaul said:That's right, but in my case, I think my boiler design doesn't require that--I'm using the factory skim port so I think it's at the correct height already. But I used to have a Utica boiler tapped on one side just exactly like yours, and I used this same pipe there to help get the height up a bit, and it was like the excellent @JUGHNE who advised me to do so! And to be real clear, this angle pictured is too high for good skimming because if the water's escape is higher than the exit port, then the oils will be floating above the port and will never escape. This is the angle I use for dumping stuff into the boiler.
So being I am back on this topic. I am going to get a 50 degree day today. So I will drain my boiler to get the surgemaster out, refill, drain, refill then skim. While I am draining I will probably put the new main vents on as well. I think I did the skimming correctly last time. The boiler was running, I shut it down and checked the pressure release prior to beginning to make sure it was good to go. Then began skimming. I read that you want it to run but not boil. What method do you guys use to get it right to that point where it is hot enough to skim but just right before the boiling point?0 -
I think I said it before but I wouldn't bother to drain before skimming, there's no point, and it will deposit all the gunk on the sides of your boiler as it drains.
Better to keep the stuff on the surface where it likely is now and slowly raise the water level to start your skim. Then you can drain it after the skim.
You can open your skim valve and watch and listen as your water heats up. You will hear it start to get near boiling, it will start to emit condensation out the valve just like water in a pan on the stove starts to release condensation (mistakenly called "steam") before it boils.
But honestly, I'm not sure it matters that much that it is hot. It may help a little.NJ Steam Homeowner.
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ethicalpaul said:I think I said it before but I wouldn't bother to drain before skimming, there's no point, and it will deposit all the gunk on the sides of your boiler as it drains. Better to keep the stuff on the surface where it likely is now and slowly raise the water level to start your skim. Then you can drain it after the skim. You can open your skim valve and watch and listen as your water heats up. You will hear it start to get near boiling, it will start to emit condensation out the valve just like water in a pan on the stove starts to release condensation (mistakenly called "steam") before it boils. But honestly, I'm not sure it matters that much that it is hot. It may help a little.0
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The skim will effectively remove the surgemaster. You will be basically replacing all the water in the boiler.
Also the skim will cool the boiler. You can slowly fill to skim level, then heat the water to hot (like say 180 degrees or so), then skim.
I feel you are overly concerned about the temperature of the water. Are you worried about cracking your boiler or something?NJ Steam Homeowner.
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See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
ethicalpaul said:The skim will effectively remove the surgemaster. You will be basically replacing all the water in the boiler. Also the skim will cool the boiler. You can slowly fill to skim level, then heat the water to hot (like say 180 degrees or so), then skim. I feel you are overly concerned about the temperature of the water. Are you worried about cracking your boiler or something?0
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Yeah, I wouldn't go out of my way to drain a 212 degree boiler and then immediately fill it with 50 degree water, but we are talking about slow temperature changes with the skimming.
This isn't like heating a dry boiler to 500 degrees and then hitting it with cold water.
If you do the skimming first, it will be hot, then slowly cool off, then you can drain it as much as you think you need and then refill it without worry because it won't be hot after the skim.NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
ethicalpaul said:Yeah, I wouldn't go out of my way to drain a 212 degree boiler and then immediately fill it with 50 degree water, but we are talking about slow temperature changes with the skimming. This isn't like heating a dry boiler to 500 degrees and then hitting it with cold water. If you do the skimming first, it will be hot, then slowly cool off, then you can drain it as much as you think you need and then refill it without worry because it won't be hot after the skim.1
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