crawl spaces

scrantch

Is piping in a crawl treated the same as if it was under a slab? Or can there be connections for gas or water?

STEVEusaPA

scrantch said:

Is piping in a crawl treated the same as if it was under a slab? Or can there be connections for gas or water?

What? Little more detail, please.

scrantch

What type of pipe should be used for propane when the runs are in a crawl space

Intplm.

To my knowledge there are no restrictions for workmanship from a basement to a crawl space of any kind.

Of course, all local / mechanical codes should always be followed. So, check with your local code official.

Material requirements are most likely the same in a crawl space to basement etc.

What type of material are you considering?

EBEBRATT-Ed

What @Intplm. said

scrantch

I was going to use 3/4 " black pipe hung from the floor joists but thought because it was a crawl instead of a basement they might require no threaded connections until it exited the space

HVACNUT

scrantch said:

What type of pipe should be used for propane when the runs are in a crawl space

If the crawl is not air sealed then use galvanized pipe. Black will rust. You can use fittings. 

scrantch

HVACNUT said:

scrantch said:

What type of pipe should be used for propane when the runs are in a crawl space

If the crawl is not air sealed then use galvanized pipe. Black will rust. You can use fittings. 

Thanks, it is sealed pretty good with plastic membrane on the slab and foam sprayed up the walls to the deck. There must have been moisture issues.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@scrantch

Depends where your located. Some states do not allow galvanized pipe for gas.

Massachusetts is one.

ChrisJ

I used all black iron in my crawl spaces and there's really no surface rust on any of it, at least not yet in 10 years.

To be fair, there's plenty of slightly rusted fittings out there in basements. How long do you think it'll take to rust through a fitting in a damp basement or crawl space?

From what I've seen, many areas don't even enforce painting / protecting black iron gas pipes outdoors. They just let them rust.

motoguy128

We have tons of really wet basements with 50-100 year old black pipe.  really no issues.  

I would avoid using any unions down there. Some local code May forbid it.   Mostly because of access issues.  

Our company would run a CSST product like TracPipe as it’s easier to run and hang in tight spaces and you can turn corners.   Have to use appropriate flanges and fittings to pass through floors and walls per mfg spec and code.  

But honestly I still prefer dragging the threader  to the job site and doing it right.  

Soap all joints and perform shut in test.  

ChrisJ

motoguy128 said:

We have tons of really wet basements with 50-100 year old black pipe.  really no issues.  

I would avoid using any unions down there. Some local code May forbid it.   Mostly because of access issues.  

Our company would run a CSST product like TracPipe as it’s easier to run and hang in tight spaces and you can turn corners.   Have to use appropriate flanges and fittings to pass through floors and walls per mfg spec and code.  

But honestly I still prefer dragging the threader  to the job site and doing it right.  

Soap all joints and perform shut in test.  

Shut in test?

Solid_Fuel_Man

Depending on the load served, soft copper may work out well. I've run many many feet of copper for propane. If natural gas is ever a possibility, then black pipe. I would avoid CSST personally. 

mattmia2

Pretty sure code will require a pressure test unless it is a small modification.

mattmia2

Why is copper allowed in some places for methane and not in others?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@mattmia2

In my area copper is ok for propane, but not natural gas

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I understood that the mercaptan odorant in natural gas is corrosive to copper. https://www.arab-oil-naturalgas.com/the-effects-of-mercaptans-on-various-metals/#:~:text=Copper alloys typically are considered incompatible with mercaptans.,stems from traces of H2S in the atmosphere. That might explain it.

Yours, Larry

Solid_Fuel_Man

I was always under the impression that the same Mercaptain operant was used in both NG and LPG. 

I thought it was trace amounts of sulfur that were once found in NG that was not compatible with copper. 

mattmia2

I think the model code says something like you can use copper if it has under some sulfur content but I don't know what that means in practice since I don't think you have control over the source of the gas over the many decades that it will be in service.

ChrisJ

I'm just over here wondering what a shut in test is...............

Larry Weingarten

Hi @ChrisJ , Maybe it's a Texas thing: "A gas shut-in test, if ordered, is performed at the time of inspection. It tests to see if there are any natural gas leaks in the home and between the home and the meter. This is not included in the structural/mechanical inspection.
Gas Shut-In Test - Texas Panhandle
panhandleinspection.com/gas_shut-in_test.htm "

Or, perhaps it's the new test we're all doing, more or less while living through the corona virus

Yours, Larry

ratio

That must be where they close all the doors & windows, & wait to see if the inspector smells gas.

TAG

Just went through this ... the "rules" are all over the place. Plumber says one thing ... town another. Propane company another. Then it all changes depending on who comes out.

The flex SS with cover is allowed almost everywhere inside -- I did not want it used in some areas that I will not be able to get to after construction .... like a spray foam insulated floor over an insulated slab. Across a ceiling in the kitchen. They used black pipe. Flex in the crawl space, basement. No copper -- only allowed on exposed small systems with above ground tank.

I even had issues with the main line from the tank --- propane company said to run 2" water line in trench to the house for future propane fish when doing all the services. The project was delayed and they sent a guy who said "not allowed" ... had to get propane company rep and inspector out to look at it. Both looked at it and said that was the way they always did it years back when any rocks around?

ChrisJ

TAG said:

Just went through this ... the "rules" are all over the place. Plumber says one thing ... town another. Propane company another. Then it all changes depending on who comes out.

The flex SS with cover is allowed almost everywhere inside -- I did not want it used in some areas that I will not be able to get to after construction .... like a spray foam insulated floor over an insulated slab. Across a ceiling in the kitchen. They used black pipe. Flex in the crawl space, basement. No copper -- only allowed on exposed small systems with above ground tank.

I even had issues with the main line from the tank --- propane company said to run 2" water line in trench to the house for future propane fish when doing all the services. The project was delayed and they sent a guy who said "not allowed" ... had to get propane company rep and inspector out to look at it. Both looked at it and said that was the way they always did it years back when any rocks around?

My dad had the same issues with running a conduit for the propane line.

Some said it wasn't allowed, propane company said it's fine.

I wish we had some kind of rule book to go by so everyone would agree.................

ratio

That's the beauty of standards. There are so many to choose from!

Solid_Fuel_Man

The whole thing with a conduit (raceway) for propane or NG for that matter, is the danger of a leak following the conduit into the structure. I always seal the end into the structure, and leave the outdoor end (usually at the tank) open and the inspector is happy. Well now water will fill it up and freeze.....

Seems we would seal both ends, if there is a leak well....if it were direct burial it will still find it's way into the building. 

ChrisJ

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

The whole thing with a conduit (raceway) for propane or NG for that matter, is the danger of a leak following the conduit into the structure. I always seal the end into the structure, and leave the outdoor end (usually at the tank) open and the inspector is happy. Well now water will fill it up and freeze.....

Seems we would seal both ends, if there is a leak well....if it were direct burial it will still find it's way into the building. 

In my dad's case the conduit stops a foot from the building where the tubing comes out and goes up to the regulator outside.  Then that is plumbed into the house up at the sill.

You have to dig down to the ends of the conduit to access it at both sides but it's far better than digging the entire length.   He originally did it because they were driving heavy machinery over that area to build the house and he didn't want issues with the freshly buried tubing.  But it came in handy recently when they ran a second line to feed a generator.

mattmia2

This appears to describe the pressure test required in the fuel gas code:
https://www.amarillo.gov/home/showdocument?id=20130

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Solid_Fuel_Man

is right about a gas leak following a pipe or conduit. That is the reason most all gas meters are installed outdoors now rather than in the building. Same with propane usually go from the tank underground and up on the outside of the building to the reg