Trio P3 oil boiler with Bradford White indirect water heater

cysticfib17

STEVEusaPA said:

subcooler_65 said:

Re-pipe the boiler ? For what? There's nothing wrong with that piping.
It does look like the wrong gauge vent pipe tho (Good catch).
The circulator electrical access is Ok.
Local codes will states if he needs a mixing valve. I've never had to install one but I've been out of the biz for about 12yrs.
OP....Has this been inspected?

What @Ironman said...

All in all, it will probably work ok. You just need it set up as cold start. Insulate the domestic piping. The indirect will keep the boiler basically as a 'warm start'.
And most likely need a cleaning every year.
But, set up properly, double filtration, you could probably get a tune up every year or two, and a cleaning on the second or third year.

Thanks, I am just so frustrated with the whole thing because when you hire someone to do work for you on your home, you expect it to be done correctly. And if you don't know this field, how would you even know if it was done correctly or not until there is a problem? This contractor came highly recommended and has many positive reviews. He is fairly new with his own business but worked in the field for another company in the past. I certainly don't want to insult him but it seems like he is lacking in knowledge. They came back out the other day and stated they changed it to a cold start but nothing else was done. I am now worried about all the piping, lack of mixing valve, supporting the pipes etc after posting on this site and has no idea where to turn. I am not going to have him come back out again to "fix" things if he doesn't know how to do it correctly in the first place.

mattmia2

I can't tell if he knew what he was doing 30 years ago and just never learned as technology and practices changed or is just making it up as he goes along.

cysticfib17

mattmia2 said:

I can't tell if he knew what he was doing 30 years ago and just never learned as technology and practices changed or is just making it up as he goes along.

I would say he is about 40 years old. But what would you suggest we do now? Just leave it as is and pray for the best? Asking him to come back out in my opinion is a complete waste. But then asking someone else to come out and "fix" his errors could be very costly.

hot_rod

cysticfib17 said:

mattmia2 said:

I can't tell if he knew what he was doing 30 years ago and just never learned as technology and practices changed or is just making it up as he goes along.

I would say he is about 40 years old. But what would you suggest we do now? Just leave it as is and pray for the best? Asking him to come back out in my opinion is a complete waste. But then asking someone else to come out and "fix" his errors could be very costly.

Well at the very least it needs to work properly. The call for DHW and heat needs to be sorted out. Maybe contact the manufacturer while he is in front of the boiler to sort out control setup.

Some of his piping methods while not "best practices" they will work.

There really is not a code dictating "pumping away" or where and what type of flow protection is required, that comes for experience and training from the industry.
Local code requirements like a DHW mixing valve are non negotiable. I know at least 3 states require mixing valves on all water heater devices. That if for his liability protection as much as your safety.

If he is open minded, maybe approach him with a list of suggested corrections based on opinions, manufacturers piping diagrams, etc that you got here?

mattmia2

hot_rod said:

There really is not a code dictating "pumping away" or where and what type of flow protection is required, that comes for experience and training from the industry.

Other than something along the lines of the code saying:
"In addition to the requirements of this code,
the installation of boilers shall be in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions and the International Mechanical Code.".

STEVEusaPA

Yeah but the manual is very weak on piping diagrams. Only 1 drawing showing one zone and an indirect, 1 circulator, 2 zone valves, air scoop (not properly piped).
The probably is, like I mentioned earlier, it probably will work ok. Won't have the best system efficiency.
You won't be able to force him to change it, nor is he legally obligated.
Was a permit required? Did he get one? Not that there would be any help for you, outside the possible mixing valve requirement.

Now if he were a member here, we could probably shame him into fixing it.
Let's see how it performs if we get a winter.

hot_rod

It's probably the toughest post we get here. How to arbitrate a completed job. How to hold a contractor responsible for a correction when there are "grey" areas regarding piping practices.

But it needs to work, be safe, and legal and code compliant.

There are non biased, non manufacturers (boiler) sources for piping diagrams.

Here are a few.

https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_19_na.pdf

cysticfib17

I do appreciate all of the time that everyone took to respond. We really feel we are in a bind with now knowing things should have been piped/wired/set-up differently but you are right, he is not really obligated to come and fix any of his work. And in all reality, do I really trust him to do it properly at this point. If he knew how to do it properly in the first place (which we assumed he did from all the positive reviews), I wouldn't be typing this message. We did consider calling out another contractor but I just feel stupid at this point. We spent 5 weeks researching the Trio oil boiler and indirect water heater thinking we knew what we were doing but apparently not. We had 8 estimates from 8 different contractors. They all had different opinions on what they think we should have installed. I think most people just pick the cheapest one and trust they do it properly and just forget about it because its in their basement. And I even find in this particular thread that there are mixed opinions on what should or shouldn't have been done. I'm 28 weeks pregnant with our second child and just want to cry from frustration at this point.

hot_rod

Who supplied the boiler, you or the installer? Maybe contact the branch where it was purchased, ask for the hydronics person and explain the situation.
I do not think the equipment is at fault.
I would guess the supplier or manufacturer of the product would step up and help you get it sorted out.
You should not have to go into your own pocket to get this resolved.

cysticfib17

hot_rod said:

Who supplied the boiler, you or the installer? Maybe contact the branch where it was purchased, ask for the hydronics person and explain the situation. I do not think the equipment is at fault. I would guess the supplier or manufacturer of the product would step up and help you get it sorted out. You should not have to go into your own pocket to get this resolved.

We told the installer what brand we wanted and he purchased it.  Possibly from F.W. Webb where the Trio boilers are purchased.  When we had the initial issue with it not being wired to cold start, I contacted the sales manager at Boyertown Furnace and she reached
out to F.W. Webb and I believe they followed up with the installer to make sure they came out and fixed the wiring for cold start but now all these other issues have been pointed out since.  

subcooler_65

I would call the Town Hall and ask if a permit is required for a replacement oil boiler. If they say "yes", tell the installer he is required to do this. Was permitting part of the install quote? Your Homeowners Ins would not approve also if something were to happen. He will not want to be on the bad side of the inspector or he will be ground into a pile of dust and will not enjoy doing anymore installs in that town. Point out your concerns with the inspector if he doesn't see the obvious problems himself.

hot_rod

Here is the requirement on the Vermont.gov website, you might check the city or county inspectors for their interpretation. Local codes can sometimes amend or add to code verbiage.

Regardless a water heater mixing valve is an important safety device, especially if you have young-in in the home and on the way
Current logic is to maintain the tank above 130F for anti legionella piece of mind, mix to 115- 120F for the final use.

So the tank mixer does two important jobs, allows for safe tank operating temperature, and protects from excessively hot water at the faucets.

The mention of a soft tissue lawsuit should send shudders down the spine of any plumber. Required by local codes or not, it would be wise to have one.
The tank will need to be maintained 20° or so more than the mixed down temperature to adequacy protect.

A good way to get some unions on the tank at the same time

Ironman

@cysticfib17
Please don't fret over this. Though the piping is not ideal, it can work.
May I make a simple suggestion: talk to the installer and ask him to make a few corrections that won't be that costly for him to do. He appears to take pride in his work, so he should be willing to comply.
1. Have him wire the control properly for cold start. This is simple and easy and has already been explained.
2. Have him install a flow check on the indirect. The internal one used in circulators is an inexpensive and an easily installed device.
3. Have him install the mixing valve on the indirect. This will take less than an hour. I found the Cash Acme kit to be easy and reliable.
4. A combustion analysis needs to be done. If he doesn't own one, he should invest in a digital combustion analyzer and be trained how to use it. You could also ask your fuel oil provider to do this.

All of this could be done in 1/2 a day.

Again, He appears to care about doing a good job, but just needs some technical guidance. This site is the best place in the world for him to get that and maybe if you approach him the right way, he would be willing to come here. The time he would spend here would be the best investment he could make.

cysticfib17

Ironman said:

@cysticfib17 Please don't fret over this. Though the piping is not ideal, it can work. May I make a simple suggestion: talk to the installer and ask him to make a few corrections that won't be that costly for him to do. He appears to take pride in his work, so he should be willing to comply. 1. Have him wire the control properly for cold start. This is simple and easy and has already been explained. 2. Have him install a flow check on the indirect. The internal one used in circulators is an inexpensive and an easily installed device. 3. Have him install the mixing valve on the indirect. This will take less than an hour. I found the Cash Acme kit to be easy and reliable. 4. A combustion analysis needs to be done. If he doesn't own one, he should invest in a digital combustion analyzer and be trained how to use it. You could also ask your fuel oil provider to do this. All of this could be done in 1/2 a day. Again, He appears to care about doing a good job, but just needs some technical guidance. This site is the best place in the world for him to get that and maybe if you approach him the right way, he would be willing to come here. The time he would spend here would be the best investment he could make.

Do Riello burners have a distinct sound upon start up?  We previously had a Beckett.  The Riello burner makes an initial sound upon start up but then subsides.  Almost sounds like a reverb.  It’s difficult to describe but again don’t know if it’s normal or not.

Ironman

The Riello can be slightly louder than a Beckett.

This is why you need a combustion analysis done. The burner may be out of adjustment.

HVACNUT

The Riello will have a 10 second pre purge and a 5 second trial for ignition. Ignition should be instant though. They offer a combustion air kit that quiets it down some. They also offer the BF.

STEVEusaPA

@HVACNUT Do they still sell the combustion air kits? Haven’t see one in a few years.
Most suppliers say 'discontinued'. I guess they just want you to switch to the BF.

HVACNUT

STEVEusaPA said:

@HVACNUT Do they still sell the combustion air kits? Haven’t see one in a few years. Most suppliers say 'discontinued'. I guess they just want you to switch to the BF.

You know what? I just assumed they would be available. I haven't been in a situation in years where it would be a solution. I still have one in the box. Think I can retire on it? 

cysticfib17

Just wanted to post a follow-up.....I had reached out to F.W. Webb and expressed all my concerns with the set-up and they sent a support staff and the installer to my home to make any amends needed.  Thank you to whomever recommended I reach out to the supplier.  I was told today, all is good and should have no more worries.