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Moen Posi-Temp 1222 cartridge replacement?

stephen11962
stephen11962 Member Posts: 40
12 year old Moen shower (exterior) control valve, single handle started leaking - a drop at a time. Searching on line lead to advice for a new cartridge, Moen Posi-Temp 1222. Got a replacement cart (not moen). Extreme trouble getting the old cart out, destroyed the plastic put in/out adapter that came with new. By various means I did get old out without (I think) damaging the cylinder into which it fit. Putting the new one in was not quite as difficult as taking the old one out but seemed to be unnatural. Turned the water on and it leaked - more than before.

I have a choice, try a new cartridge ($40 +/- with the same problems taking the old one out) or replacing the whole rough-on with new new rough-in ($70 +/-) that come with a cartridge installed.

The rough-in is connected via pex>threaded 1/2" fitting (see photo). I assume the threaded fitting rotates around the crimp pex end and will disconnecting and reconnecting the pex will not result in leaking from the connections. Please someone comment on this!

At this point I do not care about the cost difference. The time and frustration dealing with this make me a dangerous man!

Stephen

Comments

  • BillyO
    BillyO Member Posts: 276
    that's a real good valve in wall, try a genuine Moen cartridge first. did you remove chrome sleeve and remove retaining clip before you tried yanking cartridge out? really shouldn't be a problem. Good Luck
  • stephen11962
    stephen11962 Member Posts: 40
    Taking out the cartridge was a terrible problem. There must be 10-20 YouTube videos foR stuck cartridges and how to extract them. None of the videos were useful because the mode of failure was different from the videos. .

    I took out the retainer, sleeve. To no avail. I tend to favor replacing the rough. I wonder if I damaged the inside surface of the Brass cartridge. If so a new, real cartridge wont work.
  • Yes, they can be very difficult to remove, especially if you have hard water.

    If your valve was hard-piped, I'd say give it one more try with a brass, Moen 1200 cartridge, but it looks like the valve is installed with flex lines which should make replacement a snap.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,320
    Often the valve body will get ridges from the old O rings on the cartridge. Not unlike brake cylinders in a car. If so and you can hone the inside of the body to clean that up.
    The Moen cartridges come with some silicon lubricant for reinstalling. You also might have rolled an O ring out of place.
    The knock off replacement may have been made of to many Chineisium parts.
    rick in Alaska
  • stephen11962
    stephen11962 Member Posts: 40
    Water is well water and is pretty acidic. I have learned that the resistance of brass to acidic water is dependent on the exact composition of the brass. Too much zinc is a no no.

    OK, I still have the question about wether the rotation of the threaded male end with the PEX compression fitting will compromise the water tightness of the joint? Rotation is necessary to enable installation of the valve, yes?
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,368
    edited July 2020
    I just installed a moen posi-temp shower valve this past weekend and it looks exactly like that. I wondered how long it would be before they discontinued it. Glad to see some things stay the same!

    You should be able to screw off lines from valve without compromising their integrity.
  • Condoman
    Condoman Member Posts: 88
    Not mentioned yet is using the removal tool. These are a beast without that. I know it too late for this OP but for the future it is worth having.
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,368
    The instruction pamphlet says to use pliers on stem to pull out if sweating copper to valve. It makes no mention of a removal tool.
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 3,508
    edited July 2020
    The removal tool is optional. You can usually do the same thing with a pair of needle-nose pliers.

    There are actually two removal tools: the plastic one that comes with the cartridge or the fancy one.

    The hardest thing about removing the cartridge is breaking the o-rings away from the valve body. Whatever lubrication was there when the cartridge went in is long gone, replaced with concretions; just like petrified wood. Sometimes, you can break that seal just by turning the cartridge, but often, it won't budge and you need the leverage of a more robust tool.


    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
  • stephen11962
    stephen11962 Member Posts: 40
    I am back, worried about the connectors to the valve body which might leak after rotation for removal and for re-installation. I attach a close up of one of the connections. The silver end of the pex tubing sits inside the brass male connector and its actual configuration is hidden from view. Is it meant to rotate to facilitate installation? Or is there something that justifies my worry? My education in plumbing occurred about 50 +/- years ago, well before pex.
    Thank every one for contributing.



  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,320
    Someone here has had much experience with pex.
    Are these built such that the connector can swivel after being crimped??

    I have almost no experience with pex myself but am doubting you could unscrew this without twisting the pex itself.

    Have you checked inside the valve body for ridges or scars?
    I would clean and try a brand name component.
    A copper fitting brush could fit inside the body.
    What is on the back side of the shower wall?
    Could you cut an access opening if needed?
  • stephen11962
    stephen11962 Member Posts: 40
    edited July 2020
    I did not visually check the inside of the cartridge housing. I did use my finger and could feel nothing amiss, maybe not the best verification. To repeat, putting the new (not Moen) cart in left me concerned about how really difficult it was. I did use a silicon grease. (Moen's YouTube shows it just sliding in! - but, questioned, 'they' said it was for the sake of the video!)

    I just checked by unloosening a little bit, one of the 1/2" male brass connectors to the valve body. That turned but the silver (crimp?) pex part did not move. That is no guarantee that no damage will be done by unscrewing out the old and re-screwing in the new valve body. I would like feedback from someone who knows pex fittings much better that I.

    I think I have devised (after the fact) a means of removing the new cart without damaging (more?) the housing.

    Access via the back is possible, but only over my dead body.

    I cannot believe how much time this has extracted from my life!
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,320
    Plumbing can do that to all of us.....but we get to charge for it. ;)
  • BillyO
    BillyO Member Posts: 276
    that connection is fine, the press sleeve doesn't connect to the brass adapter
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 639
    Here's my experience with Moen cartridges: they're guaranteed! I call 1-800 BUY MOEN, and they send replacements for free! Indeed, the old cartridges can get really "concreted" in place with mineralization of hard water. You can 1.) use the white plastic "tool" provided with new cartridge to help ROTATE in place, the cartridge using a crescent wrench--to loosen the cartridge for then pulling it out with plyers on the stem or 2.) use the expensive metal tool (like a wheel puller) to PULL the cartridge straight out. I'm not sure why all the talk of "damaging" the brass valve body--other than to clean it out with very light sanding or brushing--if its "mineralized."
    It seems like the OP is most worried about the crimped pex connection, and whether he can turn out the brass male adapter. Do it--if the brass turns and the bright metal sleeve doesn't. The brass threads appear to be well doped or taped.
    rick in Alaska
  • stephen11962
    stephen11962 Member Posts: 40
    BillyO I am not sure I understand. All I can see is the male brass fitting and the silver part of the pex fitting. I can rotate the brass fitting a bit and the silver part does not move. This could be a feature of this assembly, allowing the pex tubing to be connected to the valve body - AND, 12 years later, to allow disconnecting the domestic supply pex tubing from the valve body. That would allow me to change the valve body not creating a new leak (that would take a real plumber who won't come on July 4th weekend!)

    psb75 The white plastic 'tool' self destructed in trying to extract the old and in the process of extracting it I did manage to mar the surrounding brass. (I have learned after the fact how to safely extract the cartridge - spilled milk.) I have a new valve body coming from Georgia and I worry about the capability of the brass/pex connection.

    This is becoming a sorry novel.
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 639
    So...you are now doing an entire shower valve replacement.
    Should be possible. I think the 3 brass male adaptors will turn out and not harm the pex connections.
    BillyO
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    I never struggled with cartridges until a few years ago I had to take one out in pieces, at one of my rental units. Must be some water science stuff happening
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • 347
    347 Member Posts: 135
    Maybe try using heat to melt the cartridge., its worked for me a few times
  • stephen11962
    stephen11962 Member Posts: 40
    I would now like to relieve all, most, some, of any anxiety and announce that I have finally solved all problems related to my original post:
    In removing the cartridge I did manage to mess up the valve body. The existing valve body was no longer manufactured. Somehow, I was directed to get the 2590 Posi-Temp valve with stops. Bad choice! that valve body is much larger and would not fit the space vacated by the old valve. Got the 2510 which is also larger (had a fourth port, a tub outlet). That I managed to install but required a lot of swearing. I turned the water on, no leaks from the connections or the cartridge.

    Finally, as a public announcement I want to advise all those of a certain age to get the new shingles vaccine (shingrex) - 2 injections. I am now 80 years of age, had shingles, 7 years ago, in my right ear and suffer a whole list of afflictions, the worst of which is vestibular dysfunction causing dizziness when moving my head. You do not want to risk this!

    Not the least, thanks to all who tried to lead me out of this mess.

    Stephen

    JUGHNE
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,368
    Well done! My wife was diagnosed with vestibular dysfunction last Friday. Hopefully PT will help her. The dizziness is not fun. I feel bad for calling her a dizzy broad now.