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HTP storge tank ultra

enniobruno
enniobruno Member Posts: 37
need some help please. Ive had this tank for well over 15 years and never had an issue with hot water. For the past month now the recovery is taking way to long. After the second shower we are out of hot water and takes about 2 hours. Ive checked swapped out the circulator and raised the boiler temp to195. On Saturday i completely emptied the tank and tried shocking the coil by calling for heat on the aquastat to remove any debri on it. I did this about 4 times. Still same issue. Also about 2 months agao i had a leak on my boiler so i put in a bottle of boiler stop. Could this have affected the coils?

Comments

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    > @enniobruno said:
    > Also about 2 months agao i had a leak on my boiler so i put in a bottle of boiler stop. Could this have affected the coils?


    Oh yes it could. Oh yes it did. You've essentially insulated the water heater's HX.

    Now you have a cracked boiler and a glopped up indirect.

    How about starting a new thread titled "Need new heating system. Help with type and size please".
    STEVEusaPASuperTechCanuckerRich_49
  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 531
    You might have put a layer of "stuff on the coil but I doubt you covered it enough to greatly effect the efficiency of it. That would take a lot of oat meal. I also depends on the type of boiler seal you used also. If you used a water glass based liquid it's unlikely going to cover anything up. What kind did you use and how much?
    My guess is the boiler is to blame not the tank.
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    I used 1 qt of Hercules boiler liquid.
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited March 2020
    Do you have a thermostatic mixing valve on the hot water supply to the house faucets? If you do, how old and what is the quality of your water service. My prime suspect.

    You might look at the aquastat controlling the temp in the Ultra-stor. Pics help alot.

    How do you know what the tank temperature is?

    Are you sure that you are getting adequate flow from the boiler thru the Ultra HX ? Is this a sudden problem or something that's happening over a long period of time? Did you throttle down any valves that you forgot to open?

    What Hercules product did you use? Boiler Solder? The HX on the Ultra-stor is 1". I don't think it would have an effect on heat transfer.
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    I do not have a mixing valve. it started to happen after i installed the boiler liquid. i do have a flow control valve between the boiler and the tank. i opened it last night to manual to see if i have a flow problem. So far today a few showers were taken and seems ok. i need to check when i get back home. Its a bell&gosset model sa-1 flo control. Do these valves fail?? So when i was doing the manufacture recommended shocking the coils. With the tank empty and running 190 degree water through the coil i used heat gun to measure the pipes. i had 190 coming in and about 140 returning to the boiler
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,272
    if you measure the temperature going in the coil and out the coil when the tank is cold what is the difference, ∆T?
    What circulator? If we could determine flow rate and know delta we can calculate heat transfer.

    Any other piping getting warm when the indirect calls? If so a check or zone valve may be allowing some flow to a heating zone.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 5,505
    you had a 50 degree F delta t on the coil with no water around the coil?
  • PerryHolzman
    PerryHolzman Member Posts: 234
    My guess is that the boiler sealer gunked up the flow control valve (and possibly other flow control items) and thus restricting the boiler water flow through the indirect tank coil.

    You may need to take that apart and clean/repair it, or replace it.

    You are unlikely to have affected the heat transfer of the coil much.

    Perry
    mattmia2
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    Still need help. Been playing around for 2weeks. I removed flo control replaced taco007 bypassed relay box and aquastat. I get tank hot. 2showers and no more hot water. Then takes 2 -3 hours to get tank back to 140 degrees. Taco is running all the time. When I check pipe from boiler to tank and it's super hot but return is ice cold. I open purge valve and get very little water. It's driving me nuts. This system has worked for 15 years no issues
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 5,505
    Is there a strainer in there somewhere? Some pictures of the system? Is there air preventing flow in the coil? Can you force purge it?
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    What is force purge?
  • BillyO
    BillyO Member Posts: 274
    matt may be on to something, remove screen from strainer and see if its clogged, if there still is a screen
    kcoppSuperTech
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    I don’t have a strainer
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,272
    Here is a Y strainer in the piping. Unless it has been removed there is a strainer inside that may need to be cleaned.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    BoonSuperTech
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    So when I open that spigot on the y I have good flow. You suggest that I remove spigot and get to strainer? Also my wife just took a 10 min shower and I checked pipe goo in into tank and it was hot. Cold returning to boiler. I once removing some water from spigot near circ pipe started to get a little warm. If I only open spigot with yellow valve to circ off I get little flow. Its only while I have spigot open and I open yellow valve and then close spigot while I’m getting boiler water to come out that’s when the water from tank warms up
  • coby
    coby Member Posts: 16
    yes remove, if you look at the picture hot_rod sent you the water will flow through the middle of the strainer and out the spigot.
  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 531
    Close the yellow handled valve near the pepsi bottle attach a hose to the boiler drain also near the pepsi bottle fold the hose and open the drain increase the pressure to the boiler and gradually unfold the hose letting water out to prevent the boiler pressure from reaching 30psi. do you get any air? How is the flow? What's the temp like? Sounds air bound to me but there is an off chance that that strainer is blocked up.
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    Is there an email that I can send u guys A video of water flow from spigot?
  • Boon
    Boon Member Posts: 255
    Pardon my [homeowner] jumping in [sticking my neck out] to make an observation/suggestion:
    Then takes 2 -3 hours to get tank back to 140 degrees. Taco is running all the time. When I check pipe from boiler to tank and it's super hot but return is ice cold
    The taco can't be running all the time, can it? There has been no mention of short cycling but the hot water coming out of the boiler has to be going somewhere for 2-3 hours or else it would (a) short cycle or (b) limit trip or (c) heat the DHW, right, or ok maybe (d) fresh water coming in, getting heated, then going down a drain?

    Could the water be diverting through the heat system via a path of least resistance, or perhaps a poorly-wired/conceived control strategy is only presenting problems now because of a failed component.
    DIY'er ... ripped out a perfectly good forced-air furnace and replaced it with hot water & radiators.
    Grallert
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    Sorry I failed to mention that Taco is running because aqua stat on tank is made calling for water
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    Pretty simple system aqua stat goes to an Argo relay box. Relay powers circulator. I’m an electrician. I’ve checked all components and they are all working fine
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,272
    flow restriction somewhere, the flo control valve can be forced open.
    Or the chemical you added clogged the strainer, my first choice.

    Or the piping is airlocked.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    mattmia2
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    So yesterday I close the feed for the boiler valve and the cirque valve I put a water hose on the strainer Spigot and a drain hose on the cir Spigot just to see if there was any restriction. Flow was great came right out. So when I shut the cirque Spicket off I kept water on until I closed the valves. Basically filling the loop and the coil with water. Turned everything back on and I immediately started feeling the warm water by the circulator pump. So After my wife showered this morning I drained water again like I described earlier it’s still hot even after my son took a shower around 11 am. When this fails I will open and check the strainer. One thing though like I said earlier when I open that Spicket water flows with no issue
  • PerryHolzman
    PerryHolzman Member Posts: 234
    I suggest you take apart the Y strainer. Flow though it's drain valve tells you almost nothing about if the strainer is plugged or not. Take a picture of the "As Found" strainer element and post it here...

    IF its an American Y strainer mfr (or possibly some European companies) you can probably get replacement elements and even new end caps. At least in power plants we could by replacement strainers and end caps for Y strainers installed 30-50 years ago.

    Hope that helps,

    Perry
    coby
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,272
    They can be a bear to open up, it may take a few large wrenches.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • BillyO
    BillyO Member Posts: 274
    remove it all together, not needed
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    Ok gotcha. Was planning to do that
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    thank you Gentlemen. The strainer was complete plugged. See pics. I think my hot water issue is solved.
    ZmanBoonSuperTechCanucker
  • PerryHolzman
    PerryHolzman Member Posts: 234
    Good job. I hope you put it back in as now you can see what it has kept out of the rest of the system.

    Happy showers for all...

    Perry
  • BillyO
    BillyO Member Posts: 274
    Great, always go with the most obvious first when troubleshooting
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,272

    thank you Gentlemen. The strainer was complete plugged. See pics. I think my hot water issue is solved.

    Great pics! I'm doing a Shop Talk presentation tomorrow evening on dirt and mag separation in hydronics, can I use those pics. Credit noted of course :)

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    SuperTech
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    Of Course!!!!
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    Good morning. Have a quick question. when I was trouble shooting my hot water problem I removed the flo control going into The storage tank. It seems my hot water is way too hot I cannot control with the aquastat on the storage tank. I know it’s because the heat is still on and I’m getting really hot water passing through the coil.
    Should I put the flow control back? Will that Correct my problem. I have never had an issue with it being this hot in the past. Right now I have 160 degree water at faucet.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    Yes! The water will just gravitate hot to cold 24/7/365 otherwise.
    Why did you remove it?
    What model circulator is on that loop?
    Is it possible to install an internal flow check in it?
    mattmia2
  • enniobruno
    enniobruno Member Posts: 37
    I removed it because I was trying to eliminate
    Everything that was causing me not to have hot water. I have a taco 007. Can I install a check valve instead of the flow control?