Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

Closely spaced tees

Options
CBRob
CBRob Member Posts: 273
edited March 2020 in THE MAIN WALL
I'm familiar with the traditional set up.

Is there a variety of styles that still decouple pumps with the tees in different positions?

Any places I can look for examples of tee alternatives,?
See drawing in lower post

Comments

  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
    Options
    Why the very abstract questions?
    Probably better you post what you are trying to do, what you are contemplating, and why traditional methods won’t work for you (or a drawing).

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    CBRob
  • CBRob
    CBRob Member Posts: 273
    Options
    Just working through options. I can route the traditional way, but wonder if these are as effective.
    Here is the traditional
    And my proposed versions.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,962
    Options
    If i'm thinking of it right, as long as they are close so the resistance of the pipe between the tee's is small they will serve their function
    CBRob
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,483
    Options
    Really no set in stone requirements and some variance from Primary Secondary Etiquettecy (sp) will work to a point.

    As @mattmia2 indicated it is about maintaining the lowest resistance between the tees. And that is dependant on flow rate to some degree. I have seen in excess of 12" between the tees and it still works fine. Also a bit depends on the flow resistance of the secondaries. Low flow resistance would be more potential for ghost flow.

    Drawing #1 was commonly used on the Watts HydroControl pre-manufactured panels

    #2 would be a stretch

    #3 seems like a common P/S?

    This issue of Idronics shows some common P/S piping flubs

    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_19_na.pdf

    Time to move past P/S piping and embrace hydraulic separators :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    mattmia2CBRob
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,962
    Options
    but the hydraulic separator costs like half the price of the boiler...
  • CBRob
    CBRob Member Posts: 273
    edited March 2020
    Options
    I'm replacing a boiler here in this application.

    I think the main role of the primary secondary separation here is going to be maintaining the minimum flow through the boiler.
    I only have one circ pump serving all of these zones. The zones are in high mass infloor and staple up in floor heat.
    No regard for the GPM rate when it's one zone or 10 zones open. No differencial bypass either.

    The original set up is more of the #2 drawing.

    Bob, in the #3 drawing...
    Does it matter if it's the primary tee'd into the secondary or the other way around?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,483
    Options
    mattmia2 said:

    but the hydraulic separator costs like half the price of the boiler...

    Where are you buying separators? Need to looks as a separator as a 4 function device, and the labor cost of buying and building all that separately.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    mattmia2Canucker
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,483
    Options
    CBRob said:

    I'm replacing a boiler here in this application.



    I think the main role of the primary secondary separation here is going to be maintaining the minimum flow through the boiler.

    I only have one circ pump serving all of these zones. The zones are in high mass infloor and staple up in floor heat.

    No regard for the GPM rate when it's one zone or 10 zones open. No differencial bypass either.



    The original set up is more of the #2 drawing.



    Bob, in the #3 drawing...

    Does it matter if it's the primary tee'd into the secondary or the other way around?

    I would highly recommend either a pressure bypass valve, or better yet a delta P circulator. The rule of thumb is 4 or more zone valves and you should have pressure activated bypass valves.

    What is the total required GPM of that job? Must be some small micro loads with that many ZVs?

    The debate is ongoing as to which loop is considered primary and which secondary. Some suggest the loop the boiler is in should be the primary. Function-wise the key is proper use and sizing of the closely spaced tees.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,962
    Options
    Actually, I made my near boiler piping bigger than it needed to be in my rush to replace a leaking water heater so it probably all wouldn't have been as bad in 1" vs 1.25"
  • CBRob
    CBRob Member Posts: 273
    edited March 2020
    Options
    Bob, the house is about 3000 sf, so about 300 SF per zone.

    The house heated pretty well with the existing setup....
    At least no complaints from the owners
    The boiler will be a direct replacement for a same size model.
    Just a little different on the piping.

    I'll look into the delta p pumps
    I've read a little about them.
    Thanks
  • CBRob
    CBRob Member Posts: 273
    Options
    The alpha 1 pump is not too expensive.
    I'll try and talk the owner into the upgrade.
    Looks like it would be ideal for use in this one pump 10 zones application.
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,205
    Options
    > @CBRob said:
    >
    > The alpha 1 pump is not too expensive.
    > I'll try and talk the owner into the upgrade.
    > Looks like it would be ideal for use in this one pump 10 zones application.

    > @CBRob said:
    >
    > The alpha 1 pump is not too expensive.
    > I'll try and talk the owner into the upgrade.
    > Looks like it would be ideal for use in this one pump 10 zones application.

    I have the Alpha 2, it's a fine circulator for zone valve applications. I've also seen the Taco VR1816 in action, it does the job just as well.
    mattmia2
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
    Options
    Shouldn’t you pump into the boiler and into the top of the indirect?

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    GroundUp
  • CBRob
    CBRob Member Posts: 273
    Options
    > @STEVEusaPA said:
    > Shouldn’t you pump into the boiler and into the top of the indirect?

    The suggested install is to pump out of the boiler, but I think either is fine.
    Is it better to pump away from the vent at the top of the boiler?
    The indirect is designed to get the supply at the bottom, labeled as such.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,483
    Options
    CBRob said:

    > @STEVEusaPA said:

    > Shouldn’t you pump into the boiler and into the top of the indirect?



    The suggested install is to pump out of the boiler, but I think either is fine.

    Is it better to pump away from the vent at the top of the boiler?

    The indirect is designed to get the supply at the bottom, labeled as such.

    If it is a high pressure, high flow resistance type of boiler I would suggest and so would most manufacturers that you pump into the boiler.

    Cast iron or fire tube, it is not as critical, although no harm would come from pumping in. Assuming the circulator is sized and piped correctly.

    Cast iron package boilers came out of the crate with circulators mounted on the return for many years, maybe some still do :)

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Zman