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Tiger Loop

weedhopper
weedhopper Member Posts: 59
I bought a Tiger Loop to hopefully avoid pushing ‘reset’ every once in a while. The boiler is a Slant Fin Liberty with a fairly new tank and a new oil line that runs from the bottom of the tank up to a beam, across about 20’ then down to the boiler. The boiler was serviced about last Thanksgiving. The Beckett burner has a Suntec A2VA-7116 pump.

So I know that I have to install a bypass plug in the return port. There are three ports on the pump, inlet, outlet on the bottom of the pump and the original fuel port from the tank on the upper right. Three ports.

The Tiger Loop has two ports, inlet and outlet on the side and the port on the bottom from the tank. So I have two lines running from the Tiger Loop to the three possible ports on the pump. Where do they connect on the pump?

Thanks in Advance !
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Comments

  • BDR529
    BDR529 Member Posts: 197
    Read the instructions.
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    Brilliant. Thanks. The instructions do tell me to connect to the inlet. I have two inlets on the pump and two You Tube screenshots of the supply line running to two different inlet ports. Maybe it does not make a difference.
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,775
    A bypass plug goes into the bottom return return port (arrow out) of the pump , This return port is piped to the return of the tiger loop , The port of the supply of the tiger loop can be piped to either intake of the pump ... A set of braded lines make this instal a lot easier .




    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    OK. Thanks. So I just cap off the unused inlet as in the screenshots I have. I got two braided lines from Supply House so I should be good to go.

    The plug is 5/16 hex I believe ?
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319
    Why do you think a tiger loop will fix your reset problems? Why is the burner locking out in the first place?
    steve
    rick in Alaska
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,349
    @STEVEusaPA
    My favorite type of post
    STEVEusaPA
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    We never had a problem until we installed the overhead line last year. The boiler runs like a champ when it is cycling to produce heat in the winter, never need to reset. When the boiler sits on warmer days as in not calling for heat it occasionally has to be reset, usually at the wrong time like when somebody jumps in the shower to be greeted with cold water. There is a check valve in the line right after the filter which is attached to the oil tank.

    I have a friend who converted from underground tanks, that were higher than his boiler, to two Roth tanks that draw from the top. One of his furnaces had to be bled constantly and as a friend I watched the house while he was away for the winter. I met with his heating guy and we decided to try a Tiger Loop.

    Voila ! Problem solved. The furnace fired without bleeding even though there was air in the pump from the work that had been done. We have never had to hit reset since.

  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319
    So you had a vacuum leak and probably didn't bleed the pump properly, plus the check valve wouldn't have helped, and probably contributed to the problem.
    steve
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    I don’t have to bleed the pump. The burner fires when I push reset. The times that I have bled the pump I let oil and air from the bleeder spray into a cup. When I get a steady flow of oil I would close the bleeder and the boiler fires.

    The check valve, back flow preventer, is one year old, not sure how that could contribute to the problem.

    Also, the tank is always at least 1/4 full. I order oil ( from the same good company) when the level is close to 1/4. Thousands of people use this oil delivery company so I don’t think bad oil is an issue.
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,775
    I agree with the problems with using check valves . The only way to fully remove the trapped air is using the high volume push pull pump .. A vacuum gauge by the burner would tell you if the line needs to be bleed . A vacuum at rest .

    A tiger loop would solve all the issues . But I am not sure if they need to be installed above the level of oil to prevent oil spillage if the tiger loop fails and allows oil to siphon though ??
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
    stevemikel
  • Jon_blaney
    Jon_blaney Member Posts: 138
    While I like my Tiger Loop, I do not think fuel is your problem. I think you have a spark/ignition issue. Is this a one or two pipe system? Do you have a gravity feed or is it pumped?

    One thing about a TL is it gives you a sight glass to see if you have oil flow.
    rick in Alaska
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    I had thought about the ignition issue too. Sometimes there is a long (3 second) delay accompanied by the sound of airflow before it ignites. I only do what I know so I am not going into the transformer, that’s for sure.

    Over the winter I scored a brand new exact replacement boiler that the heating boys will install this summer. It’ sitting in a crate in the basement. It’s the exact boiler at a killer price and the heating guy is good with working like this. So maybe brand new everything will solve the problem.

    It’s a one pipe system. Oil tank to shut off valve on the tank, then a filter. The line goes up from there 7’ to a beam, across the beam about 18’ then drops down to the boiler. One continuous line. The only pump is the pump on the burner.

    If we find it’s an ignition problem I still think the TL won’t hurt anything after seeing what it did at my friend’s house.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    edited March 2020
    I'll start off by saying your buddies heating guy should put his tools back in his truck, go home, and pound sand. He didn't "Viola!" solve anything, other than showing his oil heating aptitude.
    He's the guy that gives Tiger Loop a bad name. The post by @EBEBRATT-Ed was a poke in the ribs to @STEVEusaPA as if to say, "See? Here we go again."

    Long story short. There is a vacuum leak. The vacuum leak must be repaired. Remove the check valve. Test the oil lines.
    Still do the Tiger Loop if you want to. For the right reasons.

    I have a Tiger Loop Ultra on my system. But not because its bleeding.
    SuperTech
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    Well, Roth Tank recommends a TL installation in their instructions so I don’t think my buddies heating guy needs to pound sand. My buddies heating guy did not do that installation anyway. He took over after the original installer died unexpectedly. And the TL worked.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    > @weedhopper said:
    >
    > Over the winter I scored a brand new exact replacement boiler that the heating boys will install this summer. It’ sitting in a crate in the basement. It’s the exact boiler at a killer price and the heating guy is good with working like this. So maybe brand new everything will solve the problem.
    >
    >

    Killer doesn't mean anything if the original boiler was not sized correctly... killer. And I'd bet the ranch it wasn't. And a S/F Liberty to another S/F Liberty? In 2020? You should just keep that between us. Shhh.
    STEVEusaPA
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    Its known industrywide, for years, a Tiger Loop has been used as a "Band-aid" and all it does is mask the actual problem.
    A Tiger Loop is not a repair. Ever.
    STEVEusaPA
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    You guys are as sarcastic as my former heating guy, LOL.

    The original boiler was installed in 1996 by a heating contractor from a plumbing supply house, not Home Creepo. It has served us well. I had to replace the heating coil once then we added a better water filter (well water) and never a problem since. The house is a replica center chimney cape so the boiler is in the center under the stairs. The complete basement is finished, sheetrock walls and ceilings. My office and drum studio is down here and the heat put out by our “ horribly inefficient” boiler keeps the basement warm without an additional heating source. Yes I know we use more oil but that’s really not a big deal.

    So 24 years with the same boiler that has worked well ain’t too bad. But, looking at the unit I see the heating coil gasket starting to deteriorate, a new coil in the box is $329. Other things may happen that will add to repair costs led me to find it’s exact replacement for $1500. In the crate.

    My former heating guy wanted to sell me a Burnam unit that had a separate 40 gal water heater fired by the boile for about $9500.

    “ so then I get a cold basement, right ? “
    “ yeah but we will just throw some radiation around the basement as another zone for about another 3K”. Separate Tstat, circulator, etc.

    So almost 13k compared to $1500 plus installation aint that bad. That’s my reasoning anyway.

  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    HVACNUT said:

    Its known industrywide, for years, a Tiger Loop has been used as a "Band-aid" and all it does is mask the actual problem.

    A Tiger Loop is not a repair. Ever.

    HVACNUT said:

    Its known industrywide, for years, a Tiger Loop has been used as a "Band-aid" and all it does is mask the actual problem.

    A Tiger Loop is not a repair. Ever.

    OK. So if It is bringing air into the system wouldn’t I notice a leak of some sort when the system is not drawing oil? Maybe I am wrong but if air can get in then wouldn’t I have a small leak somewhere ?
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,775
    I believe a tiger loop is a better alternative then a two pipe system ..
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
    rick in AlaskaSuperTech
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319



    OK. So if It is bringing air into the system wouldn’t I notice a leak of some sort when the system is not drawing oil? Maybe I am wrong but if air can get in then wouldn’t I have a small leak somewhere ?

    It's pretty common to have a vacuum leak and show no signs of liquid.
    Assuming your check valve was probably near the tank, vertical position or at the ceiling joists. The vacuum leak (like taking your finger off of a straw after you pull it out of your drink) will introduce air and a little oil to drain back into the tank. When that little bit of air reaches your pump, it locks out. Any other place it will just pull in air while the burner is running until it pulls in enough to cause a lockout. The fact that you have this problem after the burner sits a while points towards a vacuum leak, or a bad pump seal, but we'll save that for another discussion. Or it could not be a fuel-side problem. Your 3 second delay could be loss of prime, leak, failing pump seal, lack of post purge, or that check valve.
    If you had no vacuum leak, and properly primed your pump (power vacuum bleed), you would have no lockout issue.

    Roth recommends the Tiger Loop because that's easier than making sure all your flares are perfect (which isn't that easy).
    The other reason is if you ever seen a properly joined (all copper) 2 or even 3 tank set up, it's a good bet that someone won't make the 17-19 flares (on a 3 tank) perfect.

    As far as your killer deal, a proper heat loss tells you the proper size boiler, anything larger wastes energy.

    Drumming should keep you warm :), especially if you play like Dave Grohl.

    steve
    weedhopperEdTheHeaterMan
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,243
    In my experience, if you can push the reset and it comes right back, it most likely isn't an air problem. If it was, with a one pipe system, you would have to bleed the air out to get it going. But, maybe if it was just enough air, it might run, but I kind of doubt it. The next time it does it, see what comes out if you try bleeding it. If you don't get air, it's not an air problem.
    I don't use tigerloops unless there is a situation that warrants it. I had to do a job where the fuel tank was below the level of the burner, and the line was quite a distance. I ran 1/2 copper, but there was just too much vacuum for a Riello to pull from doing single line. I hate running a cold return line, so I put the tigerloop in and it worked perfect. But, it is like a sharkbite; I only use them when I have to.
    Rick
    JHK
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    Thanks.
    I will give the installation a shot this week and report back. I am still trying to determine the bypass plug size. I read 5/16 and also 1/16 which seems way too small. I want to get the right parts before I open it up so I don’t have shlep to the hardware store in the middle of the installation.

    Then I can go back to the drums and try to emulate Dave Grohl..
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    It's a 1/16" pipe bypass plug.
    Google Suntec bypass plug.
    5/32 Allen wrench head.
    stevemikel
  • Jon_blaney
    Jon_blaney Member Posts: 138
    I had trouble getting one and the cost online was ridiculous. Finally, stood around at the supply house counter and asked oil burner looking guys if the had one drifting around in there truck. The first guy I asked gave me one. They come with the burners and if they do a single pipe system it is left over.
    stevemikel
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    HVACNUT said:

    It's a 1/16" pipe bypass plug.

    Google Suntec bypass plug.

    5/32 Allen wrench head.

    Ace hardware store variety or special to Suntec ? The crated boiler I have probably has one but I hate to all that wrapping off to find it not there. But I can.
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    So I was a sport and ordered two from Supply House. Those guys are very prompt by the way. The shipping was twice the cost, LOL. If anyone needs one after this adventure, hit me up !
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    > @Jon_blaney said:
    > I had trouble getting one and the cost online was ridiculous. Finally, stood around at the supply house counter and asked oil burner looking guys if the had one drifting around in there truck. The first guy I asked gave me one. They come with the burners and if they do a single pipe system it is left over.

    Good call. I always keep a few on the truck but most go in the garbage.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    > @weedhopper said:
    > (Quote)
    > Ace hardware store variety or special to Suntec ? The crated boiler I have probably has one but I hate to all that wrapping off to find it not there. But I can.

    I've never compared. NPT 1/16". There's gotta be a burner guy at the 7-11 or something who will give you one.
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    See above, I splurged and ordered TWO from Supply house. Free or getting lucky never works for me.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319

    I had trouble getting one and the cost online was ridiculous. Finally, stood around at the supply house counter and asked oil burner looking guys if the had one drifting around in there truck. The first guy I asked gave me one. They come with the burners and if they do a single pipe system it is left over.

    That sounds familiar...comment #5
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/168737/suntec-pump-bypass-plug#latest
    steve
  • Jon_blaney
    Jon_blaney Member Posts: 138
    Good solutions just need to be shared.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,349
    Before Tiger Loops were invented if you had any lift the burner wouldn't run without lockouts unless the flares were perfect.

    Nothing has changed. I am not against Tiger loops on the right job. I just think most every job will run without them if piped correctly. A bad flare was a bad flare 40 years ago, it still is. A Tiger loop shouldn't be used to fix bad flares



    rick in AlaskaHVACNUT
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    edited March 2020
    OK, got this bad boy a couple days ago. Don’t know why they call it 1/16” as it’s the size of a pencil eraser. Looks like a hardware store item unless the threads are different.

    I will stick it in soon and fire up the new TL !
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,349
    @weedhopper

    It's not 1/16" in size, it's 1/16" Pipe thread which is a tapered thread. Just screw it in don't put dope or teflon tape on it
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    OK, thanks
  • stevemikel
    stevemikel Member Posts: 8
    edited March 2020
    Is there a filter inline between the tank and the burner? It’s been awhile but I remember having quite a few vacuum leaks involving the washer/ gasket on the fuel filters especially after someone changed the element/felt filter and reused the washers. Sometimes the bolt might be just a bit too long and cause the vac leak. Set up a vacuum/compound gauge in the system and watch it during a few cycles.
    The Suntec manual covers fuel piping techniques. Check you line size as well.
    I agree with the earlier statement: usually a tiger loop is a bandaid for poor piping technique.
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    Yes. The filter is at the tank, then a check valve. Then the line goes up about 7 feet, across about 18 feet then drops down to the boiler. The line is one continuous piece, coated copper line new two years ago. Replaces the line buried in the concrete.

    I can have the new heating guy check everything this summer when they change the boiler. Maybe I will have a good used TL for sale then.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    Lose the check valve.
  • weedhopper
    weedhopper Member Posts: 59
    I have heard that comment before. I don’t see a benefit as the tank is always at least 1/4 full so the line pressure certainly can’t overcome the tank pressure, right? The day it gets stuck will be the day I can’t get oil with a full tank.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319

    I have heard that comment before. I don’t see a benefit as the tank is always at least 1/4 full so the line pressure certainly can’t overcome the tank pressure, right? The day it gets stuck will be the day I can’t get oil with a full tank.

    That makes no sense. The check valve traps oil between the check valve and the fuel pump with no where to go should the oil expand.
    It also traps crud, and prevents a tech from ever hand pumping the oil line from the pump back into the tank to remove an obstruction. And if they're dumb enough to use a CO2 cartridge, it'll probably get ugly.
    steve
    SuperTechrick in AlaskaHVACNUT