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Beckett Pump losing prime

VicM
VicM Member Posts: 38
Boiler is Weil Mclain WTGO-3L with Beckett burner. Boiler was last serviced in Aug 2019. Fuel tank is above ground and outside of the house.
Few days ago in night, boiler went into reset. In morning reset did not work on the first attempt but worked on the second attempt. After a while boiler went back into reset again. We reset the boiler but went into reset again . Another reset resolved the issue. Boiler ran fine for few hours until there was a call for heat/hot water. After 30 min there was another call for heat and tried to run but went into reset. We reset again but same issue did not work on first reset but work on second reset. It seems that if the boiler shuts off and fires again in 10 to 15 min then it works fine but, if boiler is off for more than 15 min it won't fire again and goes into reset. There is a gauge on the spin on filter. When boiler was working fine it would read about 10 HG. In this case, when the boiler fires for the first time it reads about 4 to 5 hg then goes into reset. When the boiler goes into reset the first time, the gauge goes little up to about 6 to 7 hg. When reset second time the boiler runs fine with gauge at about 10 hg. Any suggestions on what could be the issue and what needs to be done?

Another question - I am planning to change the filter, strainer and nozzle. I removed the nozzle and it says 0.65 60A but the boiler manual and Beckett pump both says that the nozzle needed is 0.85 44B? Any reason why the nozzle's are different? Which nozzle should be used for replacement?
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Comments

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,691
    edited February 2020
    You have a major restriction in your oil supply line. Either it's plugged with sediment and sludge or its freezing due to water in the oil. A competent oil burner technician should easily be able to determine the cause of the restriction. It could just be a plugged filter. Unless you have a seriously contaminated oil tank the filter should not be that severely plugged in a year.

    Do not replace the nozzle with anything else but what it's currently using unless you have an oil pump pressure gauge and combustion analysis equipment! You can easily cause a dangerous situation if you do. It's quite possible that someone replaced the .85 45B nozzle with an incorrect one, but without proper equipment correct and safe operation of the boiler cannot be guaranteed.
    STEVEusaPAJellis
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319
    Along with @SuperTech 's excellent advice, could also be a failing firomatic valve (if so equipped).
    At 10" of vacuum you are getting outside the fuel units recommended operating range. The oil is starting to actually separate.
    steve
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    edited February 2020
    Thanks @SuperTech, @STEVEusaPA. Changed oil filter, nozzle and pump strainer. They were all clean. There was no sign of bacteria or sludge at filter. I also bleed the line and some fuel comes good and some little froothy. I reached out to couple tech locally for fuel line restrictions cleaning and they said it would cost about $450+ or more. Does this seems a good price? I have never requested this service before. Also, the fuel tank is fairly new. It was installed in 2013. So I am not sure if sludge would buildup in in few years.

    I have 2 firomatic valve. One before the filter and one after filter and before pump. Any way to know if the firomatic valve is failing? Should I consider to replace one (before filter) or both valve before proceeding with fuel line restriction service.

    Also the line from tank to the house is buried under sand in the front yard. Could it be that the line is corroded underground?
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,775
    When the burner is not running what does the vacuum gauge read ?
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319
    How can they quote you a price when they didn’t diagnose a problem? That price is ridiculous.
    steve
    SuperTech
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    Can you post a pic of the nozzle assembly?
    If spec is for a .85 45°B then it should have the L1 head and that's the nozzle that should be used. At 140 psi.
    Find someone else if that's the case. Meaning not you. No offense. Someone with trade experience, a smoke tester, and a combustion analyzer.
    Ooh, and maybe pressure and vacuum gauges.

    And with the resetting. Stop.
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    edited February 2020
    > @Big Ed_4 said:
    > When the burner is not running what does the vacuum gauge read ?

    When the burner is not running the vacuum slowly goes down to about 2.5".
    2.PNG 1.1M
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    HVACNUT said:

    Can you post a pic of the nozzle assembly?

    If spec is for a .85 45°B then it should have the L1 head and that's the nozzle that should be used. At 140 psi.

    Find someone else if that's the case. Meaning not you. No offense. Someone with trade experience, a smoke tester, and a combustion analyzer.

    Ooh, and maybe pressure and vacuum gauges.



    And with the resetting. Stop.

    I will have to open it again for nozzle assembly picture. This is how it looks.

    Yes, I did bring in tech and the issue did not get resolved. First pump was replaced stating that its a bad pump ($375 due to no contract), I got a contract at this time for $275 then expansion tank was replaced ($290), Then was told there is bacteria in the oil causing boiler to shut down and some liquid was added for bacteria ($150), then next time there is air in the line ($125). Boiler not working on very cold day and tech not showing up for a day resulted in pipe freezing and bursting and that resulted in another $550 in repair. I had to pay for all of this even in contract since was told all the issues are due to bad fuel. Now I have a full tank of new fuel but the issues still keeps happening. So, now I am trying to understanding what are the causes and what needs to be done so I am better prepared. Also, in my last 10 years of boiler service I have not seen any tech doing combustion analysis. I see that being discussed a lot on heatinghelp.com but I am still to see that happening in my case.

    I will look for a tech who has a smoke tester, and a combustion analyzer but any suggestions on what cost I should be looking for so I know before hand? I am almost 2K into it.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319
    Sorry but you're getting ripped off. Where are you located?
    Not that you can do much about it, but this is one of the reasons why you should get your oil from a full service company instead of saving pennies (or more) per gallon from the bottom feeders.
    Then at least you have some leverage.
    -Junk in the tank...you delivered it.
    -Multiple service calls for same problem...shouldn't have to keep paying, or they'll lose a customer.

    So when you received new (clean) oil and the problem persists, why won't the original company come back out (now that it's not bad fuel) and fix the problem? What's their new excuse?
    steve
    rick in Alaska
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38

    Sorry but you're getting ripped off. Where are you located?
    Not that you can do much about it, but this is one of the reasons why you should get your oil from a full service company instead of saving pennies (or more) per gallon from the bottom feeders.
    Then at least you have some leverage.
    -Junk in the tank...you delivered it.
    -Multiple service calls for same problem...shouldn't have to keep paying, or they'll lose a customer.

    So when you received new (clean) oil and the problem persists, why won't the original company come back out (now that it's not bad fuel) and fix the problem? What's their new excuse?

    I use to get the oil from full service company until they were ripping off too. I understand that the full service company will charge a $1 more than the cash price but charging $2 more (fixed price not ceiling price) was crazy. I spoke to few neighbor and friends in the town and all are cash with separate service contract so I decided to go that route. Also, for full service when the price was raised I decided to cancel the contract and go cash, I was told I cannot cancel on the last day of service since that will result in early termination fee. So, I cancelled on the first day of service and still charged early termination fee. I had to fight to get by early termination fee refunded.

    I am in long island, NY. Please let me know if any one has good tech with good prices and does right work.
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    VicM said:

    Sorry but you're getting ripped off. Where are you located?
    Not that you can do much about it, but this is one of the reasons why you should get your oil from a full service company instead of saving pennies (or more) per gallon from the bottom feeders.
    Then at least you have some leverage.
    -Junk in the tank...you delivered it.
    -Multiple service calls for same problem...shouldn't have to keep paying, or they'll lose a customer.

    So when you received new (clean) oil and the problem persists, why won't the original company come back out (now that it's not bad fuel) and fix the problem? What's their new excuse?

    I use to get the oil from full service company until they were ripping off too. I understand that the full service company will charge a $1 more than the cash price but charging $2 more (fixed price not ceiling price) was crazy. I spoke to few neighbor and friends in the town and all are cash with separate service contract so I decided to go that route. Also, for full service when the price was raised I decided to cancel the contract and go cash, I was told I cannot cancel on the last day of service since that will result in early termination fee. So, I cancelled on the first day of service and still charged early termination fee. I had to fight to get by early termination fee refunded.

    I am planning to go back to full service again since either way at the end it all cost the same just full service has less hassle.

    I am in long island, NY. Please let me know if any one has good tech with good prices and does right work.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319
    Yeah $1/$2 more is also ridiculous. Sorry for your troubles.
    There's definitely some good people here on The Wall that can help you.
    steve
  • dopey27177
    dopey27177 Member Posts: 758
    typically 10" on the vacuum gauge indicates a partial stoppage.
    normally the vacuum gauge should read anywhere from 0-4".
    With a variation in vacuum like you have it appears to be some thing in the oil tank near the outlet port. Could be a piece of rag
    or some other small item that moves a little bit each time you cycle the burner.

    A temporary solution is to connect a day tank to the burner and let it fill by gravity. That will show that there is a problem eigther in the piping or worse yet in the oil tank.

    You can try to blow out the oil line with nitrogen (INERT GAS).

    If the problem is in the tank at the outlet port all you can do is empty the tank to see what is happening at the outlet port and try to remove the obstruction.

    Or run a temporary oil line from the tank to the pump. if the oil line is clear and the problem is in the oil tank you can tap your oil from the top of the tank by installing a double tapped bushing with a siphon tube cut short at about 5" from the bottom of the tank.

    Jake
    SuperTech
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    edited February 2020
    > @VicM said:
    >
    > I am in long island, NY. Please let me know if any one has good tech with good prices and does right work.

    Um, throw a rock.
    Nassau, Suffolk, Queens, Kings? 50% of them are owned by Star Gas anyway. Plenty of established smaller guys too. Ask your neighbors. When you find a tech you like, demand him or her only. Unless it's an overnight emergency of course.

    Oh and you're not originally from here are you? The natives know to say ON Long Island. And real Long Islanders never say "Up Island". Yarf.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319
    edited February 2020
    Don't blow back with nitrogen. Just have the tech use a push/pull hand pump.
    Only by knowing the juxtaposition and elevations of oil tank, line, oil burner, and attached components can you determine the proper vacuum number.
    I think if you get good competent tech, you would've had your problem resolved for a lot less than you spent.

    @HVACNUT I thought it was just all called 'lawnGILAND'?
    steve
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38

    typically 10" on the vacuum gauge indicates a partial stoppage.
    normally the vacuum gauge should read anywhere from 0-4".
    With a variation in vacuum like you have it appears to be some thing in the oil tank near the outlet port. Could be a piece of rag
    or some other small item that moves a little bit each time you cycle the burner.

    A temporary solution is to connect a day tank to the burner and let it fill by gravity. That will show that there is a problem eigther in the piping or worse yet in the oil tank.

    You can try to blow out the oil line with nitrogen (INERT GAS).

    If the problem is in the tank at the outlet port all you can do is empty the tank to see what is happening at the outlet port and try to remove the obstruction.

    Or run a temporary oil line from the tank to the pump. if the oil line is clear and the problem is in the oil tank you can tap your oil from the top of the tank by installing a double tapped bushing with a siphon tube cut short at about 5" from the bottom of the tank.

    Jake



    @dopey27177 I always had about 10" vacuum when boiler is running since we moved here. The difference is when the boiler was working well the gauge move to 10" very quickly now when boiler fires it moves to 5" stops there with no fire and goes into lockout. Reset and goes from 5" to 10" in a second and then boiler works fine. For now until this issue is resolved we are avoiding using reset. Turn the boiler on in the morning (gauge goes to 5", turn off, turn back on (gauge goes to 10"). We heat the house up, take shower and then once call for heat is completed boiler turned off.

    @HVACNUT I am in Nassau. I am not from here moved here in 2005. All tech used so far are from references from neighbor's or friends. After I discussed with them of the charges, they said they had the same issue.

    I don't know if there is any relationship but my last oil fill up (3 weeks ago) was overfilled and leaked on the tank.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    edited February 2020
    > @STEVEusaPA said:
    >
    > @HVACNUT I thought it was just all called 'lawnGILAND'?

    Ha! I know. Some stereotypes are there for a reason. I'm a Suffolk hick. Born and bred. I skipped right over Nassau, and speak Old Flatbush Ave. some reason I've never been able to figure.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    @VicM , that certainly is an L1 head. The ONLY nozzle spec'd is a .85 45°B Delavan.
    Did a tech leave evidence that a .65 60°A was installed? Anything written on a service history tag hanging nearby?
    There could be some recourse if you have the paper trail.

    You're in a dense market but most offer similar service agreement options.
    And I don't see too many getting away with what you're saying as far as charges. A call to the Service Manager is due. If he or she doesn't see it your way, climb the ladder to a pointy head.

    Now that you have a service agreement, request a Senior Tech to set up the burner correctly. And bring a .85 45°B.

    And you want it in their system that anytime the burner is touched, the Tech is to perform a draft, smoke, and combustion test. With a printed report left for your records.

    One day, just for S&G, I'm gonna get 6 apples to apples service agreement quotes from 6 different Star Gas offshoots and see what their margins really are.
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    edited February 2020

    Don't blow back with nitrogen. Just have the tech use a push/pull hand pump.
    Only by knowing the juxtaposition and elevations of oil tank, line, oil burner, and attached components can you determine the proper vacuum number.
    I think if you get good competent tech, you would've had your problem resolved for a lot less than you spent.

    @HVACNUT I thought it was just all called 'lawnGILAND'?

    Spoke to about 10 tech today. I could not find anyone who would do combustion analysis. Finally made a service call with one. He checked the system and said need to clear out the line. He used push/pull hand pump but after an hour later its the same issue. He also said that if this does not work need to install tiger loop. I scheduled appointment for Wednesday to install tiger loop. What I don't understand is that the system worked for 12 year with no tiger loop but now I need a tiger loop. Any suggestion if this would help or its just another trial and error? Would it benefit me to spend another 500 to get tiger loop installed?

    I just checked online and price for tiger loop is 100. I have a friend who did all plumbing work by himself. Can he do the tiger loop instead of hiring a tech or tech is a must and need to spend 500.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319
    Probably shouldn’t install it yourself as you will need all the proper fittings, flaring tool, bypass plug. The only way the tiger loop would help is by using a 2 pipe setup it will give your fuel pump the ability to pull a higher vacuum, self bleed. But it doesn’t fix the underlying issue. Continuous high vacuum will eventually kill the pump.
    You need a tech who knows how to properly check your components, before telling you what is wrong.
    -Fuel pump and fuel system; pressure & vacuum gauges.
    -Motor, igniter, primary; digital multi meter.
    Check entire burner set up, proper power vacuum bleed, steady state, full combustion test.
    Could be a pinched oil line. Could be failing firomatic. Could be crap in the bottom of your tank.
    When the tech blew the oil line back into the tank, what did the filter and pump strainer look like?
    steve
    SuperTech
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    edited February 2020

    Probably shouldn’t install it yourself as you will need all the proper fittings, flaring tool, bypass plug. The only way the tiger loop would help is by using a 2 pipe setup it will give your fuel pump the ability to pull a higher vacuum, self bleed. But it doesn’t fix the underlying issue. Continuous high vacuum will eventually kill the pump.
    You need a tech who knows how to properly check your components, before telling you what is wrong.
    -Fuel pump and fuel system; pressure & vacuum gauges.
    -Motor, igniter, primary; digital multi meter.
    Check entire burner set up, proper power vacuum bleed, steady state, full combustion test.
    Could be a pinched oil line. Could be failing firomatic. Could be crap in the bottom of your tank.
    When the tech blew the oil line back into the tank, what did the filter and pump strainer look like?

    I current have a 2 pipe system. The problem is that I am going tech after tech and bleeding money. Every tech charges to get into the house and suggesting parts replacement. My issue now is how do I identify a tech who knows how to properly check the system and resolve the issue. The tech today did not check fuel pump and fuel system, did not do any pressure or vacuum test, neither did any check on motor, igniter or primary control. I requested to do these checks but said the fuel is not coming to the pump there is no reason for having any issue with pump, fuel system, transformer or primary control.

    When the tech blew the oil line back into the tank, the filter and pump strainer were all clean as I replaced them couple days ago.

    Also the fuel that was pumped out using push pull pump was all clean.
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    edited February 2020
    When the burner turns on, I right away bleed the line for couple seconds .. Air comes out then oil, as soon as the oil comes out I close the line and burner runs fine. This eliminates the needs to reset. Does this mean that the issue is with the air in the fuel line or there could be issue with ignition transformer, CAD Cell or primary control?

    Could it be bad motor coupling? The reason I am asking is because I had pump seized in January. Tech came and the fan in the motor was real hard .. I saw him putting lot of pressure to release the fan. Once he did that the fan was moving smoothly. I am wondering now if that lead to this issue.

    Also, any suggestion on tiger loop. is it worth it for 2 pipe system.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 17,131
    Check "Find a Contractor" up above. There are several good folks who service Long Island.

    Since -- judging by some of your comments -- you are concerned about money, I will make one other comment which may seem harsh: the men whom you will find from this site are not cheap. Good service never, ever is. They do, however, give you good value for your money. As in so many other things, you can get bad service for cheap. You can get good service for fair money. Take your pick.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    rick in AlaskaSuperTech
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    > @Jamie Hall said:
    > Check "Find a Contractor" up above. There are several good folks who service Long Island.
    >
    > Since -- judging by some of your comments -- you are concerned about money, I will make one other comment which may seem harsh: the men whom you will find from this site are not cheap. Good service never, ever is. They do, however, give you good value for your money. As in so many other things, you can get bad service for cheap. You can get good service for fair money. Take your pick.

    I will check find a contractor. I know this things cost money but after almost 1.5k into the issue and not resolved .. started getting concerned how much more can I spend and mostly importantly how to get a tech who can get the issue resolved ..
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,244
    Personally, if you called me out to fix a problem, and I did not fix it, I would come back until I did fix it, and I would not be charging you for anything that I did not fix. If they can't find a simple fuel related problem, they should not be doing service work.
    If you do install a tigerloop, you will need the hoses and fittings to go with it. I would want to find out where the problem is before I would do that though. I am sure it would solve your problem without any harm to your burner, but if something is failing, that needs to be addressed first.
    And I can't believe you talked to 10 techs who can't do a combustion check. That is just nuts.
    Also, going back and reading your posts, I am not sure exactly how your fuel line runs. You have an above ground tank ,which I assume is also above the burner. Does both of your fuel lines come in from the top of the tank? After you fuel lines leave the tank, does the lines go in to the ground and then into the house without any other fittings on them before they enter the house? Do the lines then go to your burner with a fuel filter there and a shutoff valve?
    How exactly is it piped, and how far is this run from the tank to the burner?
    Rick
    SuperTechSTEVEusaPAethicalpaul
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    edited February 2020

    Personally, if you called me out to fix a problem, and I did not fix it, I would come back until I did fix it, and I would not be charging you for anything that I did not fix. If they can't find a simple fuel related problem, they should not be doing service work.
    If you do install a tigerloop, you will need the hoses and fittings to go with it. I would want to find out where the problem is before I would do that though. I am sure it would solve your problem without any harm to your burner, but if something is failing, that needs to be addressed first.
    And I can't believe you talked to 10 techs who can't do a combustion check. That is just nuts.
    Also, going back and reading your posts, I am not sure exactly how your fuel line runs. You have an above ground tank ,which I assume is also above the burner. Does both of your fuel lines come in from the top of the tank? After you fuel lines leave the tank, does the lines go in to the ground and then into the house without any other fittings on them before they enter the house? Do the lines then go to your burner with a fuel filter there and a shutoff valve?
    How exactly is it piped, and how far is this run from the tank to the burner?
    Rick

    I would be surprised if I could find someone here in Long Island who would only charge me once and come back and not charge again if issue is not resolved.

    A new above ground outdoor oil tank was installed in 2013 on the side of my house. The fuel line and the return line are from the top of the tank.


    The lines go down to the floor level about 4 ft then 3 ft before it goes into the ground (Soil and not concrete). Rubber insulation was added few years ago since all the existing red installation changed into yellow and got cracked.


    The lines then run under ground for about 15ft then they come out to go into my house.


    Once the lines enter the house they go 8 ft from wall into the ceiling then 11 ft into the ceiling and then they come down about 4 ft to the oil filter and then about 1.5ft to the burner.



    The fuel line and return line fittings are 1) at the tank


    2) when they enter the house


    3) when they come above the burner on the ceiling


    4) Before the oil filter.


    Before the fuel filter and before the pump there is a firomatic valve.


  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    First of all, this is beyond ridiculous and we feel for you. The quality of service you're getting is unacceptable.

    A Tiger Loop should never be used as a remedy. Because it's not.

    The new information we got is that its 2 pipe.
    Where is the tank in relation to the burner? Outside but where?
    Distance of oil lines between tank and burner.
    Height difference between burner and suction line inlet at the tank.
    Model of fuel pump.
    How are the oil lines installed? Both on top of the tank? One on the bottom?
    How much oil line is exposed to freezing?

    From the genius' that were there, it's a suction leak. When the burner turns off, the oil in the line drains back to the tank so when the burner goes to start its next cycle, there's no oil to prime the fuel pump.
    A Tiger Loop does in no way fix that problem. If that is the problem.

    What model primary control? The reset button. Is there an oil delay valve? If it's a 10 or 15 second pre purge primary and won't pull oil in that time, then Houston, we have a problem.

    So no Tiger Loop. If it's a suction leak, it must be found and fixed.

    For all the grief you've gone through, News 12 flashed by my eyes, but I'm not that kinda guy.

    And to really confuse you. Once the oil line is 100% leak free, install a Tiger Loop.
    It does have benefits.
    SuperTechSTEVEusaPA
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    Well, I see I just wasted a lot of words.
    rick in Alaska
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,691
    > @HVACNUT said:
    > Well, I see I just wasted a lot of words.

    No you didn't. If anything, you posted solid advice that someone else might read that is having a similar problem.
    Honestly, this thread makes me want to puke. I can't believe how many techs are out there working on oil equipment and they can't even use the proper tools to troubleshoot the burner correctly. This hits kinda close to home for me. My boss just hired a new tech after months of looking for someone. New guy doesn't believe that a combustion analyzer is necessary to work on oil. He just looks at the flame and calls it good. 😠
    ethicalpaul
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,208
    > @SuperTech said:
    > > @HVACNUT said:
    > > Well, I see I just wasted a lot of words.
    >
    > No you didn't. If anything, you posted solid advice that someone else might read that is having a similar problem.
    >

    Lol. I only meant the OP posted at 7:25 while I started mine at about 6:30. Got a little sidetracked.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 17,131
    OK. I'll chime in with a few points

    First, that oil line routing is insane. I can see why it might have been done that way, but it's not good. Can it be made to work? Probably. Are there better ways to do it? Yup...

    Second, I will enthusiastically second @rick in Alaska 's comment. A good workman -- dare I say craftsperson? -- will, if he or she comes to fix a problem, charge you for fixing the problem. He or she will not be cheap, but equally he or she will not charge you anything if the job doesn't get done. Now that said, there are an awful lot of folks out there who don't see it that way. In your area, they may even be in a majority. This is a shame, but -- in my humble opinion -- it comes from trying to cut corners. Don't do it. As one of my friends says, you get what you pay for.

    Third, you have a vacuum leak, plain and simple. At least one, and likely more than one. Dismal as that pipe routing is, it should, once primed, stay primed. However locating vacuum leaks is not simple, and you have a dismaying number of possible locations for it. It's going to take some time and diligence to find it -- or them. Frankly, if it were mine, I'd find a good honest craftsman (see paragraph"Second") and replace the whole thing, rerouting it to be gravity feed.

    Fourth, by this time there may be a problem with the pump itself. They don't like to run dry. So that should be checked too.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    > @HVACNUT said:
    > First of all, this is beyond ridiculous and we feel for you. The quality of service you're getting is unacceptable.
    >
    > A Tiger Loop should never be used as a remedy. Because it's not.
    >
    > The new information we got is that its 2 pipe.
    > Where is the tank in relation to the burner? Outside but where?
    > Distance of oil lines between tank and burner.
    > Height difference between burner and suction line inlet at the tank.
    > Model of fuel pump.
    > How are the oil lines installed? Both on top of the tank? One on the bottom?
    > How much oil line is exposed to freezing?
    >
    > From the genius' that were there, it's a suction leak. When the burner turns off, the oil in the line drains back to the tank so when the burner goes to start its next cycle, there's no oil to prime the fuel pump.
    > A Tiger Loop does in no way fix that problem. If that is the problem.
    >
    > What model primary control? The reset button. Is there an oil delay valve? If it's a 10 or 15 second pre purge primary and won't pull oil in that time, then Houston, we have a problem.
    >
    > So no Tiger Loop. If it's a suction leak, it must be found and fixed.
    >
    > For all the grief you've gone through, News 12 flashed by my eyes, but I'm not that kinda guy.
    >
    > And to really confuse you. Once the oil line is 100% leak free, install a Tiger Loop.
    > It does have benefits.

    I cancelled tomorrow's appointment for tiger loop installation.

    There is an oil delay valve on the suntech pump A2EA-6520.

    Primary control is honeywell R7184A.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,319
    edited February 2020
    All good advice, all around. The fact that you are bleeding a 2 pipe system tells a tale. Sorry you're getting nothing but boneheads. The fact that winter has been so mild means someone should be interested in spending the proper amount of time to fix this problem.
    For starters, you're not allowed by code to have all those fittings, especially the union outside, before it enters the house. Supposed to be all continuous pipe to each component, no unions. I count at least 8 unnecessary potential vacuum leak paths in the supply piping.
    Here's what I would do, and I think any competent tech would do (feel free to add anything I missed).
    ---------------
    I would ditch the 2 pipe, run a continuous line from the bottom of the tank, tank pitched toward the outlet, to the burner. This will help get all the crud out of your tank and into the filters. I'd also treat the oil every delivery until the filters show that all water and most of the crud were gone. Then I'd probably switch to treating 1/2 bottle every delivery to keep out moisture and to prevent freeze ups.
    I'd put a ball valve on the bottom of the tank, firomatic and double filtration right after it enters the house, can be mounted to the wall. I'd stick an OSV 3' above the burner, take out the bypass plug in the fuel pump, VERY IMPORTANT for a one pipe system, firomatic at the burner. Pull and hold a vacuum on the fuel system to confirm there are no vacuum leaks, and do the proper vacuum, pressure & cut-off on the pump. Then power bleed and go.
    If it's still pulling too much vacuum, I'd probably concede, put the bypass plug back in and stick a tiger loop at the burner.
    I'd also check the ignitor both ways (spark/ohms), check the oil valve (ohms), check the burner motor & capacitor, and check the primary control. Check Z dimension and set the burner back up to it's original factor settings. Then steady state and full combustion test, focusing on ohm readings from the cad cell.
    From there, if there is another lockout, then you can focus your efforts on the components. I'd probably also swap out the primary to one that has onboard diagnostics like a Carlin ProMaxx.
    --------------------

    I even have an OnWatch if I were actually stumped, that I can hook up to every component and data log the run cycles, but the ProMaxx does most of that anyway (except pressure and vacuum).
    And like the other fine techs on here, no more fees for callbacks related to any of the work I performed.
    Keep in mind it's very helpful to see what is going on after a reset which can help point a competent tech toward ignitor, or motor.
    steve
    SuperTech
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    edited February 2020

    All good advice, all around. The fact that you are bleeding a 2 pipe system tells a tale. Sorry you're getting nothing but boneheads. The fact that winter has been so mild means someone should be interested in spending the proper amount of time to fix this problem.
    For starters, you're not allowed by code to have all those fittings, especially the union outside, before it enters the house. Supposed to be all continuous pipe to each component, no unions. I count at least 8 unnecessary potential vacuum leak paths in the supply piping.
    Here's what I would do, and I think any competent tech would do (feel free to add anything I missed).
    ---------------
    I would ditch the 2 pipe, run a continuous line from the bottom of the tank, tank pitched toward the outlet, to the burner. This will help get all the crud out of your tank and into the filters. I'd also treat the oil every delivery until the filters show that all water and most of the crud were gone. Then I'd probably switch to treating 1/2 bottle every delivery to keep out moisture and to prevent freeze ups.
    I'd put a ball valve on the bottom of the tank, firomatic and double filtration right after it enters the house, can be mounted to the wall. I'd stick an OSV 3' above the burner, take out the bypass plug in the fuel pump, VERY IMPORTANT for a one pipe system, firomatic at the burner. Pull and hold a vacuum on the fuel system to confirm there are no vacuum leaks, and do the proper vacuum, pressure & cut-off on the pump. Then power bleed and go.
    If it's still pulling too much vacuum, I'd probably concede, put the bypass plug back in and stick a tiger loop at the burner.
    I'd also check the ignitor both ways (spark/ohms), check the oil valve (ohms), check the burner motor & capacitor, and check the primary control. Check Z dimension and set the burner back up to it's original factor settings. Then steady state and full combustion test, focusing on ohm readings from the cad cell.
    From there, if there is another lockout, then you can focus your efforts on the components. I'd probably also swap out the primary to one that has onboard diagnostics like a Carlin ProMaxx.
    --------------------

    I even have an OnWatch if I were actually stumped, that I can hook up to every component and data log the run cycles, but the ProMaxx does most of that anyway (except pressure and vacuum).
    And like the other fine techs on here, no more fees for callbacks related to any of the work I performed.
    Keep in mind it's very helpful to see what is going on after a reset which can help point a competent tech toward ignitor, or motor.

    I have been using Power Flo Fuel Energizer 16 oz. Heating Oil Additive from home depot every oil tank fill up for last 3 to 4 years. I have also used the hercules slude treatment once a year based on the ounce per gallon on fill up.

    I made the tech check the ignitor and he did using spark test and said its fine. I have multimeter. Can I do the ignitor ohms test?

    I also did ohm test for oil valve (by removing the plug that goes into the oil valve and connect multimeter to the oil valve terminals)

    I did the CAD cell ohm test by removing the CAD cell and ohm test with and without no light.

    I can redo the ohm test for oil delay valve and CAD cell and post the reading.

    Questions
    - How can I do the ignitor ohm test?
    - How can I test primary control?
    - System has been running for 12 years with same fuel lines with no issue until now. Considering that is it necessary to go from 2 pipe to 1 pipe system and tiger loop?
    - Any other test that I should perform?
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    I don't want to offend anyone but my luck with getting good tech is very slim unless I keep bleeding money and no signs of issue being resolved or hoping I have some luck. I do all my house and car working and hoping I can start looking into this issue as well considering the support I am getting from you guys.

    What you guys do here is unbelievable. I see how much support you guys provided to people on this forum for years and not expecting anything back in return. In my case, I am paying tech and still they won't answer to my questions.
    SuperTech
  • Jellis
    Jellis Member Posts: 227
    If it were me. Start by getting rid of all of your existing piping.
    run 1 oil line from bottom of tank to a tiger loop mounted close to burner. connect tiger loop to burner with flex oil lines.

    Feeding off the bottom will help filter out the sludge from the bottom of the tank.
    This will certainly eliminate the likely cause of your problems in a Vac leak

    I believe the tiger loop a good addition here, sounds like you may be 50 or so feet from your oil tank? get a tiger loop with a screw on filter and good to go.
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    Jellis said:

    If it were me. Start by getting rid of all of your existing piping.
    run 1 oil line from bottom of tank to a tiger loop mounted close to burner. connect tiger loop to burner with flex oil lines.

    Feeding off the bottom will help filter out the sludge from the bottom of the tank.
    This will certainly eliminate the likely cause of your problems in a Vac leak

    I believe the tiger loop a good addition here, sounds like you may be 50 or so feet from your oil tank? get a tiger loop with a screw on filter and good to go.

    Is the fuel tank already capable to move the lines from top to bottom or requires drilling?

    So basically, move the fuel tank line from top to bottom, bring the line into the house to the the tiger loop with spin on filter an then too the burner.

    My issue is the boiler is right in the middle of the house in the wall between kitchen and living. therefore, lift is need for the lines to go from ceiling to the burner.

    As per the expertise of all of you on the forum, do you guys think this is a vacuum issue in the line and there would not be any issue with transformer, CAD cell, Oil valve or primary control? or should they be check first?
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 17,131
    "As per the expertise of all of you on the forum, do you guys think this is a vacuum issue in the line and there would not be any issue with transformer, CAD cell, Oil valve or primary control? or should they be check first? "

    Quite possible that some of those items should be looked at -- though if it runs at all they are not the primary problem.

    What you are describing is a pretty classic vacuum leak situation, which is not a bit surprising given the photos you have shown of your installation.

    If the line absolutely has to go up and overhead (the house is on a slab), then even more than before -- it cannot have any unions or fittings on it other than at the ends, and those have to made up with great care. Overhead lines -- single or double -- can be made to work. They are also a first class pain to prime, even if they are in excellent condition.

    If I were you, I'd stop fighting the situation, get a first class craftsperson out there, tell him or her what is -- and isn't -- happening, and let them find the problems and fix them. It won't be cheap, and you won't be able to get bids on the job, but it is fixable.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    edited February 2020
    Once I bleed the line in the morning, boiler would run for hours as long as there is no break in between for atleast 20 to 25 min.

    Is it possible to remove the fuel line at the burner coming from the outside tank and have another fuel option at the burner (don't know how .. but like a small tank), test that the burner runs fine after 25 min break?
  • VicM
    VicM Member Posts: 38
    Is either of the below test helpful in my case.

    https://www.beckettcorp.com/support/tech-bulletins/successfully-locating-suction-line-leaks/

    The Vacuum Method (Suction Line Test)
    This test will be most effective when you have a shut-off valve near the oil tank.

    Install a vacuum gauge in the optional inlet port of the pump. (Single or two-pipe). Leave suction line connected.
    Close shut-off valve nearest to the oil tank.
    Start burner and allow your vacuum to stabilize.
    NOTE: On either system you may need to jumper the F-F terminals after burner start-up to allow sufficient time to stabilize vacuum reading.
    Turn power to the burner off after vacuum reading has stabilized. The vacuum reading should hold steady for 5 minutes.
    If the vacuum reading does not hold and your fuel unit is leak tight, we must then assume that the leak is between our fuel unit and shut-off valve.
    Proceed with the leak detection method of your choice to locate the fitting or connection point which is at fault.

    I have a shutoff valve at the tank and vacuum gauge on oil filter.


    The Vacuum Method (Fuel Unit Test)
    Disconnect supply line at the fuel unit.
    If system is two-pipe, disconnect return line and place an open container below return port of fuel unit.
    Fill the fuel pump of either system with oil and install a vacuum gauge into the inlet port.
    Start and run the burner until a vacuum of 10-15 in. Hg is reached.
    While the burner is running and you have reached the required vacuum, perform the following:
    Plug return port and turn power to burner OFF.
    Check the vacuum reading after shutdown. This reading should hold for a 5 minute period. If the vacuum does not hold steady, recheck all connections to assure they are tight and rerun test.
    If vacuum reading continues to leak down, repair or replace fuel unit.