Losing 10 gallons/month

mattmia2

It looks like you have a skim port just to the right of the sight glass.

ethicalpaul

Just to help you communicate here, there is no such thing as a "water release valve". I think you are referring to a "main vent". This is the vent that lets air escape but then closes once steam hits it.

Works the same as a radiator vent, but larger.

There is also no such thing as a "furnace air vent" in a steam system but I'm not sure what you mean by that term.

Fred

@impossible , my point about the pitch (and height) of the copper you installed was that even though it doesn't matter, below the boiler water line, if that added height also raised any horizontal pipe that is above the boiler water line, and pitched it the wrong way so as to cause it to hold water, you will get hammer.

impossible

ethicalpaul said:

Just to help you communicate here, there is no such thing as a "water release valve". I think you are referring to a "main vent". This is the vent that lets air escape but then closes once steam hits it.

Works the same as a radiator vent, but larger.

There is also no such thing as a "furnace air vent" in a steam system but I'm not sure what you mean by that term.

Noted and thanks. What I meant by furnace air vent... just the Hoffman valve on each radiator.

Fred said:

@impossible , my point about the pitch (and height) of the copper you installed was that even though it doesn't matter, below the boiler water line, if that added height also raised any horizontal pipe that is above the boiler water line, and pitched it the wrong way so as to cause it to hold water, you will get hammer.

Thanks Fred. The horizontal pipe hardly moved at all. Side side that I installed the new copper may have increased 0.5"-1.0" at most but it's still 15" below the water line.

One question... If you were to replace the wet return line underground section as I did, once done, would you just simply just turn on the thermostat and let the Auto Water Feeder fill the boiler? Or is there more work that needs to be done in order to get the system back up working properly? .
thanks much, i've come this far...

Fred

impossible said:

ethicalpaul said:

Just to help you communicate here, there is no such thing as a "water release valve". I think you are referring to a "main vent". This is the vent that lets air escape but then closes once steam hits it.

Works the same as a radiator vent, but larger.

There is also no such thing as a "furnace air vent" in a steam system but I'm not sure what you mean by that term.

Noted and thanks. What I meant by furnace air vent... just the Hoffman valve on each radiator.

Fred said:

@impossible , my point about the pitch (and height) of the copper you installed was that even though it doesn't matter, below the boiler water line, if that added height also raised any horizontal pipe that is above the boiler water line, and pitched it the wrong way so as to cause it to hold water, you will get hammer.

Thanks Fred. The horizontal pipe hardly moved at all. Side side that I installed the new copper may have increased 0.5"-1.0" at most but it's still 15" below the water line.

One question... If you were to replace the wet return line underground section as I did, once done, would you just simply just turn on the thermostat and let the Auto Water Feeder fill the boiler? Or is there more work that needs to be done in order to get the system back up working properly? .
thanks much, i've come this far...

I assume you have a manual water feed/bypass valve that you can open to bring the water level in the boiler back up to where it should be (Normal water level). If so use it, but, as long as there is some water, in the boiler, you can just turn the main power back on, turn the thermostat on and let the Auto water feeder fill the boiler.
With any new piping, there will be some oils introduced to the water from that new piping. After a week or so of boiler operation, the boiler will probably need to be skimmed (which is different than just draining and refilling the boiler) but it is a simple process assuming you have a skim port on the boiler.

impossible

ChrisJ said:

You need to skim water / oil off the top of the water, not drain from the bottom.

So I just started up the boiler when the water level in the sight glass was less than 10% and within 5 minutes the sight glass was full. Is there a particular valve I should be removing water from? THere are 3 valves on the front of my boiler. Mud, wet return and boiler drain valve (lowest)

ChrisJ

impossible said:

ChrisJ said:

You need to skim water / oil off the top of the water, not drain from the bottom.

So I just started up the boiler when the water level in the sight glass was less than 10% and within 5 minutes the sight glass was full. Is there a particular valve I should be removing water from? THere are 3 valves on the front of my boiler. Mud, wet return and boiler drain valve (lowest)

None of those.
There should be a place to skim water off of the top of the water in the boiler, up high. Either a plug, or a short pipe with a valve on it etc.

ChrisJ

Here's how I do it these days.
Make sure the boiler won't turn on.

https://youtu.be/nPKTSn-depc

impossible

Thank you

I got a little ambitious and drained about 5 gallons out of the wet return valve until the water level receded to normal level, fired up the furnace and no hammer. Hopefully all set now. *fingers crossed*

Really appreciate everyones help here!

ethicalpaul

OK but that's not skimming, it's draining, and it's not sufficient.

The reason that may not work is because as you drain the water, the oils, which float on top of the water, are deposited on the inside surfaces of the boiler.

then when you refill/start using the boiler, the water picks up the oil from the sides.

Look up steam boiler skimming on youtube or on this site.

impossible

ethicalpaul said:

Just to help you communicate here, there is no such thing as a "water release valve". I think you are referring to a "main vent". This is the vent that lets air escape but then closes once steam hits it.

What would cause water to come out of the main vent? Still hammering and I lost about a gallon of water through it. PSI is at 0 and I am hearing gurgling from some of the radiators.
Everything is pitched properly including the wet return and each radiator and all radiator valves are fully open.

Cheers

ChrisJ

impossible said:

Just to help you communicate here, there is no such thing as a "water release valve". I think you are referring to a "main vent". This is the vent that lets air escape but then closes once steam hits it.

What would cause water to come out of the main vent? Still hammering and I lost about a gallon of water through it. PSI is at 0! Cheers

Oil in the water.......

ethicalpaul

Have you skimmed yet? As @ChrisJ said, here’s what oil or excess water treatment can do: 

https://youtu.be/jvt8qxBaRJU

impossible

Thanks Chris and Paul. Going to skim it now. After only 5 minutes of research, it looks like all I do is open the skim port, and slightly open the manual water feed. I couldn't find how much water needs to be drained but I'll start with a couple gallons and see how it goes. Thanks again

edit: found this great resource for skimming a boiler: https://mechanical-hub.com/steam-boiler-skimming/

ChrisJ

impossible said:

Thanks Chris and Paul. Going to skim it now. After only 5 minutes of research, it looks like all I do is open the skim port, and slightly open the manual water feed. I couldn't find how much water needs to be drained but I'll start with a couple gallons and see how it goes. Thanks again edit: found this great resource for skimming a boiler: https://mechanical-hub.com/steam-boiler-skimming/

I'd start with two 5 gallon buckets.

motoguy128

Also try adding Rectorseal 8-way. I skimmed my boiler For about 4 hours after adding some piping and still had a bouncing water line (which means it boiling violently and water is getting thrown into the main... fortunately I have a drip header, but it still causes it to run less smooth). Added 8 way and it settled right down.

Did the same to another boiler near me and despite a horrible header layout, it has a stable water line.

SOem other might recommend other additives. I;ve tried 2 others and this one worked. Haven;t tried the steam master tablets. But hear good things too.

ethicalpaul

8-way is fine, it’s what I use, but I just use enough to raise my ph. Never use nearly as much as the bottle says. It will 100% cause surging and violent boiling just like in my video

impossible

Skimmed the boiler and turned it back on. The water feeder briefly read ERR than changed back to “10”. And the water continues to fill past the sight glass. I let it run another few minutes until water started coming out of the main vent. Shut unit down, drained it back down. My feeder setting appear to be set so not sure why it flashed ERR momentarily. I just had the feeder replaced 2 seasons ago. The only thing I read is that it could be a dirty LWCO probe. This has been quite the learning experience. Anyways, here’s a picture of my feeder settings (4 min, LWCO) which I did not change and a video showing my current situation. I’ve filled the boiler twice since skimming and the feeder still reads “10”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ_reafEaR0&feature=youtu.be

Fred

Looking at your near boiler piping, it looks like you have a counter flow system. At least the one main I can see looks like the low point of that main is at the boiler and the little bit of other main also looks like it may be pitched with the low point at the boiler but it is hard to tell. I also see what looks like a drip on the one main that drops down to below the water line. Where does that wet return that you replaced connect to? Is it attached at the other end of the main that we can't see? It is possible that you have one main that is counter flow and one that is parallel flow, which is okay as long as they both properly drip to a return below the water line. I find it hard to believe that much water is going to blow out of a main vent and that you hear gurgling in the radiators just from the boiler needing a skim. Yes, oil will cause the water in the boiler to bounce a lot and may even cause the water to be pushed back into the wet returns but you say the boiler water level remains at 3/4 full, based on the sight glass. My guess is that leaking wet return allowed crud to wash into the area where your Hartford loop is located and it is clogged and the mains have water in them, leftover from before you installed the copper return and that water can't get back into the boiler. I would suggest you loosen that coupling on that horizontal pipe, between your vertical drop and the Hartford loop and see if it is completely clogged. If so, clean it out so that the main(s) can properly drain.

impossible

Thanks Fred. Yes it was clogged and a considerable amount of oil came out when I skimmed. All is working fine now! I am so glad to have heat back without the hammering. I want to thank everyone that help me out along the way- I would not have had the confidence to do the job without this forum. Hopefully this post helps someone down the road.

Drew

ChrisJ

So skimming fixed it eh?

dopey27177

Is the water in the gauge glass dirty?
If it is you need to skim the water off the top of the boiler. If there are no skim ports you will have to drain the water out of the boiler several times and that includes the wet returns. This will need to be done until all the water is clear.

As to the banging, make sure all the dry returns are tied into the the wet returns separately. Dry returns cannot be twined in together.

Jake

impossible

ChrisJ said:

So skimming fixed it eh?

I am not sure if it was solely skimming or a partially closed valve. The new valve I installed was about 75% open so hard to tell but I guess it was a combo of both.

dopey27177 said:

Is the water in the gauge glass dirty?
If it is you need to skim the water off the top of the boiler. If there are no skim ports you will have to drain the water out of the boiler several times and that includes the wet returns. This will need to be done until all the water is clear.

As to the banging, make sure all the dry returns are tied into the the wet returns separately. Dry returns cannot be twined in together.

Jake

The water in the sight glass is now crystal clear.

Thanks again